A sword for the day

[Aaron Pynenberg]

it's also expensive, hot to wear- and no good after a few rounds- and as far as a slice goes it offers some, but none against puncture

[Grant Hall]

As far as the heat issue goes, there are alot of good products such as shirts and vests that reduce body heat and have minimal heat build up.

If Kevlar trully is not an option would there be any other possible materials/options?

As I mentioned in my first post (about Armour) even the most paranoid person would not want to lug armor arround all day, but I think it is an issue to consider, afterall, just because normal citizens might not conisder wearing it, what about thugs who are out to assault you/ rob you, or whatever, surely they might consider donning some protective gear for an hour or two, espeacially if it means the difference between life and death.

Just a thought.

Cheers

[Jirka Salamoun]

Grant Hall: Ok, but! In medival times it was quite normal to wear armor [no, i dont mean full plate - just paded, mail, chest plate] in the streets. They even slept with armor!! They took them off mostly only a few times in the year to wash themselves etc..
Just to mention. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Yes, there are products out there, many of which I have worn in all conditions and again it's a tradeoff- if you are willing to don it and wear it you can get used to it to a certain degree, but why do you think most cops have terrible back problems? --all the gear man, that stuff can wear you out if worn on a daily basis, but it's not bad if you want to deal with it- I guess my thought is you must think about the most likley senario and then work from this- is it more likley you will be in a fist fight or will you be shot?

If it's fist fight, then train for that, if it's shot then train for that, you could what if this and what if that all day long, but the most intelligent way to spend time preparing is to think about the most likley situations you will find YOU in.

That's why Jeanry has a set of values he uses, and I as a Police Officer in a smaller mid western City use for me. Granted I am a SWAT Officer- so does this maen I wear full SWAT gear, (in excess of 50lbs) everyday everywhere?- no- train for what you think will be your most likley encounter- but once identified, train hard and often, (do not confuse the drill for the fight- though!)- Aaron Pynenberg

[Justin Blackford]

As far as armour would go, I probably would walk around with an aketon and a shirt of maile under my jacket, since this was a more common form of armour defense for people in the Middle Ages who sought to protect their vital organs without necessarily revealing that they had armour on and because a lone shirt of maile with a padded cloth aketon would not be excessively heavy. I wouldn't wear it all the time, but if I had to walk through an end of town that I knew was a little rough, it would be a nice consideration.
As far as kevlar goes, it can stop bullets well, but doesn't defend very well against a powerful thrust from a half-sword or a spear. My friends and I tried this against a vest, and it was punctured. It might defend well against a glancing blow from a slicing weapon, but I'm not so sure about a concentrated and powerful slice against a stationary target.

Justin

[Grant Hall]

Thanks to everyone for their imput, I dont know what I would do, maybe just a stab vest, or something along those lines.

I really would like to find a good alternative, the idea of walking thru crowded streets where everyone has swords can really make a man feel... ....naked? I dont know, I would deffinantly want something against knives/daggers, otherwise by the time you realize you've been stabbed you need to have little sit down, a bit of armor would be nice. the look on your assailants face when you turned on him drawing your longsword would be priceless. (Of course if he new you had armor on he would stab you somewhere unproctected, so it would have to be something you could wear under your clothes.) I dont know, Im rambling now, (its late here in Australia. 3:50 AM. so sorry about the drool.)

Anyways, if anyone has any more thoughts on this I would like to hear them, thanks again.

[Stacy Clifford]

I think another thing to remember about Kevlar is that it's flexible, and like maille it won't prevent broken bones. I've heard that police still wind up with broken ribs fairly often even when the vest does its job, and we all know how hard swords hit and how concentrated the forces are on a thin edge.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Thats a good point Stacy, it does serve to spread the impact but as you said it does not do the whole job- I have often thought that if I could develope some type of hard shell protection for under the uniform, which would be light and breathable- that would be a nice invention, which would make it's designer very rich- Officers are in far more assaults than shootings- but don't get me wrong the kevlar has it's place. I would still love to have a little hard shell under the blues though- Aaron

[JeanryChandler]

is Cologne. You could probably drive a main battle tank down the road and people would still assume it's part of some carnival costume/preparation or whatnot, depending on the time of year.

Yeah, but no guns right? The Swiss and the Norwegieans seem a bit more free in that respect (or reckless, depending on your perspective)

Koln is a beautiful city, was through there a couple of years ago briefly though we couldn't stay long. Mighty cathedral, and an interesting history too. Hope I get to come again some day.

Jr

[JeanryChandler]

Kevlar is pretty heavy stuff, it feels like lead when you are wearing it. The weave is what makes it no good to puncture (an icepick will go right through it), but it actually would displace most blunt trauma a human could generate fairly well compared to a lot of medieval armor, IMHO.

As for maille, that very fine linked mail shirt seemed to be popular for civilian undergarments in the Renaissance. I think it was John C. who was telling us at Southern Knights how some Italian princes and gentlemen used to greet each other with hugs and feeling the ribs to see if the other guy was wearing armor...

Ciao!

JR

[s_taillebois]

Traditional ceramic, too brittle. However it's a common practice to put synthetic plates (such as plastic-ceramics) into LE protective gear.
However, as noted, armour or mail can be heavy and expensive. Plastic equivalents, lighter but still likely expensive.
Would also take a change of what's considered appropriate dress. One of the reasons the Renn. aristocrats/gentry wore loosely fitted clothing...was that some elected to wear a mail 'doublet' of sorts under the normal covering clothes. Discrete way of protecting from assasination, and didn't send the signal that one was looking for a confrontation, as would running about in plate.
So effectively, unless modern dress went seriously retro, including the doublet thing, or jerkins and such...adaptations of old armours is unlikely.

[JeanryChandler]

M Chandler,
Your post (and the rusty bayonet) bring up an interesting cultural difference between our society and that of the time of the original fechtbuchs.
Although there are knife/edged weapons oriented cultures in our society (ie here on the reservation)...on the whole these things and their effects are considered to be beyond the pale.

Of course, the knife reference was strictly applicable to modern times, the equivalent for most ancient periods would have to be more formidable, an obvious miltiary weapon such as a longsword, or even a polearm would probably raise eyebrows inside some towns...

Those people were intensively status oriented. It would have been more a matter of being respected, or ridiculed based on the qaulity of the weapon, and the presumed status of training behind it all.

Agreed, and in the Renaissance or Medieval periods in Europe you would be talking about a very class conscious society as well, with specific rules such as the sumptuary laws governing which weapons could even be carried by which classes... hence the legend of the development of the langes messer "It's only my knife herr burgermeister... for cutting mien bratwurst und spreading my butter ja! It is only one meter and a half long!"

You also raise a good point about intimidation being 90% the bearer and 10% his gear. In New Orleans right now there are any number of Feds, cops, mercenaries, soldiers and miscelaneous law enforcement and paramilitary people everywhere. I saw a guy at Mollies pub the other day with about 3 guns with maybe 5 magazines each, two knives, a collapsable baton, a stun gun, mace, and all kinds of other unidentifiable stuff attatched to his Ninja suit, but from his petulant expression, his fragile physique and posture, and his lack of awareness of the people standing around him, I couldn't help but tease the guy rather mercilessly, asking him where was his chainsaw, did he have any silver bullets etc.

But yesterday we saw this guy, I think one of the Mercenaries from Executive Decisions guarding Audobon Place. He had an MP-5 and a pistol on his hip, the MP-5 was a little worn on the barrel and the handle, like it had been used a lot. Not a lot of other gear. And a hard, hard face, like a terminal wino or a long time Con. I wasn't about to say a damn thing to that guy no matter how drunk I got. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jeanry

[s_taillebois]

The ninja gentleman, sounds a bit like some of the courts people I used to know. Never a good idea to give someone authority, who is too enamoured of the hardware.
The class perceptions and weapons...to some degree it also tends to limit peoples perceptions in other ways-namely in the choice of weapon itself. For example, swords and lances, usually were an aristocrats weapon. Accordingly, several centuries down the line, many tend to look to those as the nee' plus ultra. True to a point, but also a bit of status effect, reaching down through the centuries. For example Edward 3rd, at Crecy, also used Welsh and Cornish daggermen to good effect...especially after the knights and longbow men had had weakened the French. But slinking about through encampments, gutting horses and the occasional sleeping/wounded knight...was considered dishonorable, so their contributions haven't been written about very often.
Since we too have become a very status/heirarchy oriented society...methinks some of these attitudes inevietably will be recycled. For example, what's the effective difference between a stylet and a shank...no practical difference really...but the former does presume a lingering aire of respectability because of context...sort of...

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Jeanry- the last batch of vests they are coming out with are not nearly as heavy as older models, actually they are getting pretty light. The cost and heat are still a very large part of the issue.

As far as distributing blunt force better than med. armour I say ??? That makes no sense to me unless you are talking mail then I get it- but I am here to tell you a kevlar vest sucks against blunt trauma.

As far as giving the new guy guff- I would say I understand what you are talking about, but when drunk you should probably try and avoid any conversation with any LE personell it gets pretty old Brother, and when that happens new guy or not they are just waiting for two things to happen. !-You to go away and keep drinking or whatever, and 2- You to do something which they can arrest you for.... So that's my advice use it or not....Aaron

[Mike Chidester]

Perhaps kevlor with some sort of metal skeleton? Just thinking out loud here.