What is the Definition of a bastard sword?

[Bill Tsafa]

I have also come to the conclusion that people did not care much about classifying thier swords in the middle ages. I think the terms varied from region to region.

I think the English called any hand and half sword a bastard sword. The Germans used the term Langenschwert which to them ment Great sword or large sword. Of course the Scotts had a diffrent idea of what a greatsword was. The Galic word for greatsword was Claymore. So things get confusing from one region to another. I have also read that the blade of a bastard sword in 1000 AD was not much longer then a one hand sword, just a longer handle. Liechtenauer wrote his manual in the early 1400's and named one of the most famous chapters Longsword . I do not think that the pointy triangle sword was in use at the time so it can not be what he was thinking about. I think the pointy style Maclaude sword pictured above, was designed 100 years later. I think that durring that period swords gradualy made the trasition to a more pointy blade as the armor got better . However the term bastard sword was in use from the time of the first crusade. I recall reading about some crusader knight talking about is childhood training at some point and he mentioned bastard sword . This makes me lean towards the idea that any hand and half sword is a bastard sword because it is a cross between a one-hand and two-hand sword, hence a bastard.

[Derek Wassom]

I still loved your answer though, David. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Mike Chidester]

One thing's for sure: the definition of "bastard sword" is clearly not what I said it was when I tested for GFS

I thought it was funny how John tried to correct you and you told him he was wrong, and he said something like "Fair enough" and moved on.

Find out what the title of George Silver's second, unpublished manual is yet? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[David_Knight]

I thought it was funny how John tried to correct you and you told him he was wrong, and he said something like "Fair enough" and moved on.

As I recall, I was confused because Medieval Swordsmanship focused on the hilts, not the blade shape, no?

Find out what the title of George Silver's second, unpublished manual is yet?

The Restatement (Second) of Paradoxes of Defence?

Gene and Jay will recognize how pathetic that joke is <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Bill Tsafa]

David, I would say that the blade plays a greater roll in how a sword is best used. Thin and wide, makes a better cutter. Tapered and thick makes a better thuster. Curved makes a better slicer. A longer handle seems to provide better leverage, but I am able to perform most two hand sword manuvers on a one hand by cuping my off hand over my sword hand.

[John_Clements]

Actually, Bill, I think they did --to a degree. I can't imagine having a variety of distinct sword forms and not identifying them by specifc distinguishable names at some point:
"Boy!, Go fetch my sword! Quick!"
"...Which one,sir?"
"You know, the one...the one with the thingy, you know, kinda shaped like...um...uh..."
The pointy, tapered one, with the ring hilt?..."
"No, no, the other, one handed, with the ridge...Oh, never mind!

Etc.

JC

[Bill Tsafa]

Hi John, I liked your replay, it gave me a good chuckel, lol. I ment that the names of various weapons were diffrenet from one region to another... Say England and Germany, not in the same household or kingdom.

I will give an example of something I actuly looked into in detail a while ago. I was researching the term Knight and trying to find out if the term was a specific english word or if it was used thorughout Europe. I came to the conclusion that it was specific to England after roughly 900 Ad. Of course they had knights through out Europe, just under different names. The French equivilant is "Chevalier". I guess that is where the word chivelry comes from. In Germany I found few words relating to knight. The most common was "Ritter". But I also came accross the dark age term "Wapencnecht" I think the modern word knight come from the last five letters of that word wapenc-necht. The first 6 letters mean weapon and the last five mean servant. So the English translation is weapon-servant. The Saxons must have brought it to England around 600 Ad and it shortened over the years and redefined it. In Rome the knights where called Equestrian's or Equites. You joined the class when you reached the prerequisit wealth and could own and maintain two horses. If you fell bellow the minimum wealth they kicked you out. The Byzantine heavily aromored knights where called "Klibanophoroi" the ligher armed knights where called "Kataphactoi" In ancient Athens, Solon established the knight class as those who could own one cavelry horse for war. This was around 600 BC and they where called "Hippeis".

In all cases the knight class seems to be the second class bellow the Lords or Senate depending on time and place. You had to own horses and the only way you can do that is if you have land for them to graze on.

The common theme from what I gathered is that Knights where the Second class citizens below the rulling class and their wealth allowed them the luxury and advantage of owning a horse and taking it into battle.

So.... When Basil II of Constantinopol said "summon my Klibanophroi" I think he expected to see a line of armed men mounted on armed horses holding lances ready for battle... rather then be asked if he ment "the tin-men, with buckets on their heads, holding pointy sticks, riding on the big dogs, with big ears and hairy tails" <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Best Regards
Bill

[lukas nicinski]

hi Bill, i´m new on this forum
so i was realy interested in this tread and whlie reading your post i saw some language mistakes by writing and translating from german to english (as you will see mine). ok first there are two words one is "wappenknecht" which is from middleages and means wappen=crest and knecht =menial or servant. easy said it´s used for the servants of knights. The second one is "waffenknecht" which consists of words waffen=weapons and knecht=servant usaly used for mercenery. What i read through the historybooks in germany this word is known since the Peasant Wars .
i hope this was a help and next weak i´m going to see the true bastard swords in Musée royal de l&amp;#8217;Armée in Bruxells.
so cu. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Bill Tsafa]

Thank you very much Lukas. I do not speak German so I had to depend on translations and you know how meaning is often twisted. I will add what you told me to my personal notes. I do speak Greek should you ever require any Greek translations <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Post a few pictures from the museum if you can.