PostTraumaticStress

[William Savage]

Aaron I know youve already agreed to disagree so I wont ask you any questions to respond to.

But you wrote:
"As far as religion buffetting these soilders, I ahve to say that you are contradicting yourself no?, If psychology is as scientific as you are saying then those historical fighters should be acting and reacting the same as we are now, even with a belief in God etc...does that make sense?-"

And my response is no, I don't think the idea of a scientific psyci/mind and the idea of finding comfort from death controdict each other at all. All im trying to say is I think our ancestors found greater comfort through faith, and the sub-concious mind is irrational but not random.

Kyro, you wrote:
"I went into the Army after college, with a few more years of life experience than others, and that made an enormous amount of difference"

And as I read in the psycollogy book that started this conversation, people who score higher on intellegence tests are less effected by PTSD, as are people with larger social circles. So good for you <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Also when I started this disscussion I thought of PTSD as an issue of guilt, but many people here seem to think it is an issue of shock or stress.....just some food for thought.

[MarvinHoffman]

Hmmmm. Speaking of "on / off" switching of emotions. Travel is another thing also. Back then, a soldier may have had to march/sail for days, weeks, even months just to make it to the field of battle, and then again on the way back home. Sometimes not making it back home. Not due to death, but just staying on where he was. (or so I have come to believe from reading).

And, then there is the warrior's mindset that a soldier has to get into. I recall a story I heard about a WWII Army division. I can't vouch for it's authenticity, so take it with a grain of salt, it could be an urban legend. But this division had fought with such savagery in the pacific islands that the army had to plan a "decompression" period specifically to calm them down for reentry to society. Interesting things to think about.

Interesting things to think about.

Now, if the cause of PTSD is our society's unaccustomedness to ummm all these things mentioned, then what is the solution? One poster mentioned that he didn't believe watching a movie would correctly prepare one for war, and I think I tend to agree, so what could we do to prepare our young ones?

I know the military is currently easing up on basic training. I just got out of the National Guard, and we had a prior service Navy girl in our unit. She had been in the Navy for a couple of years, and she wasn't required to go to boot camp! Just a two week indoctrination course! Can you believe that? And I just saw a news video on foxnews about the Army making it's boot camp "less stressful".

Hmmmm are we going in the wrong direction?

[JeanryChandler]

And, then there is the warrior's mindset that a soldier has to get into. I recall a story I heard about a WWII Army division. I can't vouch for it's authenticity, so take it with a grain of salt, it could be an urban legend. But this division had fought with such savagery in the pacific islands that the army had to plan a "decompression" period specifically to calm them down for reentry to society. Interesting things to think about.

The outlaw biker movement, starting with gangs like the booze fighters and leading to more infamous organizations such as the hells angels, was established almost exclusively by WW II Veterans who couldn't re-adapt to normal society, and wanted another alternative for themselves.

JR

[David_Knight]

I don't have time to reference the source right now, but I recall from my undergraduate research that the Black Book of Carmarthen, a mid-13th c. Welsh manuscript, depicts a proto-Merlinic figure who went mad after a battle and fled into a cave in the forest, where he became something of a local prophet.

[JeanryChandler]

Gene,

"I think you are somewhat confusing the definitions here. The examples you give are of individuals or groups of people who have no intention of dying, but rather are in a very high-risk situation where the probability of survival is against them.

The Midway torpedo bomber crews in the first attacks against the Japanese fleet in their obsolete planes was an example of airmen taking an enormous risk with their lives which (unfortunately) did not produce a result - they all died (with the exception of Ensign Gay) without a torpedo striking the Japanese ships. However, the crews of those planes had no intention of ramming their aircraft into the Japanese fleet."

I'm not confusing anything. Like I said, it's a fine line. When you know you have no chance, like going over the top in some giant battle in WW I, after you have already seen other units do so and you saw what happened to them, it's pretty close to suicide. The odds of winnning the lottery may be acceptable when you are hoping to win money, but if your life is depending on the same kind of luck, I think you are more likely to simply accept the inevitablity of death and do your best anyway. This certainly is the sentiment expressed in many war accounts I have read and heard first hand.

And at Midway, it was more than the torpedo bombers being obsolete. They were sent in without fighter cover, essentially as sacrificial lambs, to bring the Japanese CAP (Zero fighters) and AA guns down to sea level so that the SBD dive bombers coming right afterward could go in unhindered.

I met George Gay personally at a WW II course I took at UNO with the late professor Stephen Ambrose, and he certainly felt that they were sacrificed, and that they knew it the whole time.

Yeah it's different than drinking your sake and saluting and tying a bandana around your head before you get into a plane packed with bombs... but it looks much more different from a vast distance, from the big picture... up close and personal I'm willing to bet you it feels about the same.

JR

P.S. Actually, damaged US aircraft did Ram into Japanese ships, I believe an SBD did at Midway.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Ok Will, no problem but .....finding comfort from death through religion is a personal choice, be it an individual choice or a group choice, it's not a sub-conscious part of the persons intuitive mind. I think you are confusing issues, or maybe I am just confused about what you had said anyway, there are a ton of good issues at play here.

[TimSheetz]

Jeanry,

the biggest difference (and there are huge differences) is that one goes to die just to kill as many as he can, just so they can feel like killed an enemy (hate). The othes die facing great odds because they are dedicated to their duty and that duty is to fight. They do so because someone has to take the fight to the enemy and they don't want to leave it to friends or loved ones. They are fighting for someone's life, not for ending their life in another death.

Medal of Honor winners and the like are full of examples of people throwing their lives away to fight the enemy or to save their buddy.

I don't know if I am communicating this properly.

Tim

[JeanryChandler]

Sure, I understand what you are saying Tim. I just think not all of the guys who died in, to be less contraversial lets say World War I about 2 or 3 years into it, did so with such idealistic goals in mind. Some were just facing an impossible situation, and almost certain death pretty much no matter what they did.

JR

[JeanryChandler]

die facing great odds because they are dedicated to their duty and that duty is to fight. They do so because someone has to take the fight to the enemy and they don't want to leave it to friends or loved ones.

I know this will sound horrible to many folks, but I bet a lot of suicide fighters felt and feel this same way.

Jr

[Gene Tausk]

Jeanry:

Discussions of World War II battles are off-topic, so I'm not going to address the fact issues you raised a the battle of Midway except to say that I believe you are very much mistaken. You can PM me if you want to continue the discussion.

As for your continued assertions that there are "little" differences between a kamikaze pilot getting onto a plane packet with explosives with the hope and expectation that he will die and a trench soldier going over the top into no-man's land with the hope that he won't die, well, I don't know how to address this.

Once again, I can only repeat the assumptions of each individual: the kamikaze pilot wants to die and considers it a complete mission failure if he does not die. The trench soldier wants to live and continues it a success if he comes through the odds and lives. I don't know how much more of a difference you can get.

If we are going to continue this part of the discussion, then let's leave it on Mid/Renn examples to keep it on topic.

Tim S - totally agree with the points you raised.


------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Kyro_Lantsberger]

Everyone interested in this topic simply must read Lt.Col. Bill Grossmans "On Killing".....alot of the things that people are beginning to think and see on this thread have been fleshed out and developed by him.

The whole thing about "dying for a cause" receives its best treatment by Grossman. I dont want to misquote, but Grossman's research would indicate that one does not live/die/fight for a cause (for very long), but rather for your battle buddy, the guy next to you.

[jeremy pace]

But Gene I do see what he is saying. Getting onboard one of those tanks/planes and being pretty sure you arent coming back is very close to willful suicide. Did they want to die? No more than the Norseman did.... but did they KNOW that death was probably on the way? Well, a religion was there that celebrated the fact. Just take as many as you can with you for eternal rewards......... again, coping with PTS before it becomes an issue.... i suppose we could call it Pre Traumatic Stress conditioning. Bootcamp tries to do this... get you ready for the realities of war and death. Works for some i suppose.... i still remember when the DIs came in our class one day (in summer of '99) and said that Iraq had attacked us and our training would be cut short so we could be infantry. We were allowed one letter to our parents. Then they had us lay our heads down so no one could see and asked the consciencious objectors to raise their hands....... I dont know how many there were, but i would say about 1/3 of our 100 some odd people class were set back in training because of it.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Oh I just caught up on this and I also agree with Gene, there is a huge diffrence in this thought process.

One culture is emphasising fighting through living, and the other is teaching to fight through dying, it's so completely opposite.

The key to seeing the diffrence is to not look at the outcome as a monday AM quarterback. They and you could not possibly know who would live or die in the end, but one group knew it, that was the mechnism of the instrument of the combat, without thier death the technique, or method would not work. This is so opposite to the western way of war, you may die but you do so with the hope of living always, never going into the "fight" with the hope of dying.

-two totally diffrent ways of thought-

[David_Knight]

In keeping with our normal research methodology, I would humbly recommend that we stop attempting to view the medieval mind through a modern lens and instead look to the period literature, as that is, in my opinion, infinitely more telling then the conjectures in which some of us are presently engaged.

That having been said, in the interests of my own sanity, I took a moment away from studying to look up the source on "PTSD Merlin," and I was correct. "An early legend, reflected in such texts as . . . the Black Book of Carmarthen . . . has Myrddin reduced to misery and madness, living in the Caledonian Forest . . . [after] the battle of Arfderydd . . . , lamenting his fate, and remembering a happier past" (Lacy, Norris, ed. The Arthurian Encyclopedia. New York: Peter Bedrick Books, 1986. 386-87).

Just so happens I own the Black Book of Carmarthen, too, and have reproduced a few pertinent excerpts:

"So sad am I / so sad / at what happened to Cedfyw and Cadfan / The noise of the battle was shrill / shields were stained / pierced through . . . They came thick and strong / more and more / hither and thither / came terror to me . . . Tens years and two score / have I been moving along / through twenty bouts of madness . . . I don't sleep now / I tremble . . . I have no peace / Since the battle of Arfderryd / it doesn't matter to me / even if the sky falls down / and the oceans flood the earth."

The entire manuscript abounds with similar descriptions of that one bloody battle and the deaths of the narrator's compatriots. If it isn't a clear depiction of a highly traumatized early medieval veteran obsessed with his "long-standing debt of blood," I don't know what is.

[JeanryChandler]

Sounds like you are getting a bit riled up Gene. I'm sorry if I seem to be slipping into my usual "devils advocate" position and I apologize if it irks, but I guess thats simply the impression I get from studying warfare in all times: Many warriors know they are facing certain death and aren't necessarily to pleased about it.

Since we obviously can't see eye to eye on this though, why don't you drive up to Austin and we can settle it with a series of longsword bouts, say first to six victories? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

JR