Rear naked choke?

[Jay Vail]

When I got taught that, I was told to put my head down so I couldn't get poked in the eyes.

And when that happens, you go to plan 2.

[Mike Cartier]

we could be talking sbout a subtelly different choke Jay, but a i am talknig about the MMA rear naked choke. Once the choke is properly locked in there is no escape from it, it is quite simply the most efficient leverage you can put ino a choke. very high leve; grapplers can escape sometime due to thier conditioning against chokes but thats about it, but even then its very tough to do once its truly set in and locked down.
If you get you can lift up his elbow for space to breathe and do anything then the choke is not properly locked in, likewise if you can bite anything it is not locked in as it set onto the neck below the mouth. As with most really good counters its done by not getting put into the submission not by getting out once you asre truly in it

Its definatly not a trachial choke, its an artery choke that cuts off blood to the brain which is why its so fast and effective once locked on. if its trachial its not a RNC its more like the wrestlers forearm chokes or a guillotine that work on the fron of the throat, this gives the opponent a bit more time to react if he holds his breath.

The Gi chokes are arterial in nature quite often but lack the irrisistable leverage of the RNC.

[Steve Ames]

http://bjj.org/techniques/jen/tech8a/ ? Same as the "sleeper hold" in pro-wrestling?

[Mike Cartier]

yes thats it although for some reason it has no hooks or leg control like with a body triangle. Without this its much much easier to escape from a RNC than if you are not locked down with the hooks or a body triangle.

[Randall Pleasant]

Mike

I fully agree with you on the effectiveness of the RNC - once it is locked in. However, I still feel that the RNC is a poor choice against someone who already has a knife/dagger in a free hand. You either need to gain control of the adversary's weapon or do something so violent to him that he cannot use the weapon. Therefore, in the situation shown in the image from Vadi I consider the technique shown, performing a hip throw by violently jerking the adversary's head, to to be much better than a RNC. If performed correctly (all things perfect) the hip throw by the head will basically give the adversary zero seconds to stab. On the other hand, if performed correctly (all things perfect) the RNC may give the adversary a couple of seconds to stab. To sum it up, I'd be OK with letting you, Jay, Jake, or Tim practice the RNC on me, but there is no way in hell I'm letting any of you practice that head jerking hip throw on me. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I agree with Ran, it's a good technique, but weapons will throw all that out the window, just a little poke will do ya, also love this as well:
"wrestling may be your thing but blunt force trauma is king"

-a well placed punch in the kisser will throw off anyone's techniques-

those are ancient secrets that I have shared from my old discipline called, "streetfightfu" -you are all welcome, and may pay me later-AP

[David_Knight]

Tim - Coincidentally, I have a pic of me with a solid body triangle on my opponent. As you can see, it frees up your arms completely and causes the opponent severe discomfort, esp. if you have short legs like I do. Here, I am cutting off his airways, trying to get him to panic and open up for the choke (it's mean, yes, but I think it's important to always teach the unsportsmanlike techniques in addition to the competition-friendly ones).



I agree with Mike that this choke takes a split second to incapacitate even a significantly larger opponent, provided it is completely sunken in. But if the opponent, as here, is able to control one of your arms before you get the choke, you'll have to work for it.

[Mike Cartier]

I agree with Ran that getting thrown sucks, rather be choked out any day. And yeah weapons spoil all sorts of stuff.

David Nice body triangle.
In Rugby we called that technique you are doing with your hands "the facial".

[JeffGentry]

Hey Gent's

That body triangle will set you up for your opponent to put a nice knee pinch on you.



All the guy on the bottom has to do is grab your right leg with his right hand, just above the ankle and pull back on it, it hurt's like the dicken's, am willing to bet it could also pop the knee.

I have about 3 other ankle technique's to escape the hook's in RNC that are all very effective and could pop an ankle in two, they are all from all in/catch wrestling, there are some very nasty wrestling thing's that can be used in most ground fighting situation's.


Jeff

[TimSheetz]

HI Jeff,

Reading about Catch wrestling is where I've heard about toe and ankle techniques...

I think the RNC cannot be used until an opponents weapon is neutralized... or if you try it on me you better make sure I don't have a knife!

Peace,

Tim

[Jake_Norwood]

Hey,

This thread really exploded!

well i wouldn't say that the RNC is the most effective proven unarmed technique for the battlefield, i would say that would have to be bashing someones head in.

I'm quoting SFC (ret) Matt Larsen, the former USARMY Combatives Chief on this one. In 2005, out of 200 recorded hand-to-hand encounters in Iraq and Afghanistan, the most effective techniqe over-and-over again has been the RNC. Likewise, although every soldier carries a knife (bayonet or 5-inch folder or both), only two of those 200 recorded incidents involved a knife (and in one case it was the Insurgent that had the knife).

i think you forgot something Jake, what would have happened if the man on your back had a knife also. RNC can be used to get a 3 point tie up for either striking or stabbing so it can go both ways.

If the guy on the back had a knife then why is he going for a choke? Well, the guy on my back carries a bigger knife than I do (my knife's blade is only 2 inches long but about an inch wide at the base, his was a 6-inch folder), but he didn't have it out (good thing for me), and his arms were tied up in the choke, preventing him from bringing the knife to bear (also good for me). Until he gets the 3 point tie up, yeah, but I had my knife out really fast.

This has been the case at the Army combatives school with the stun guns; once weapons are involved the RNC evolves or vanishes very quickly. I've seen that...not pretty.

(lots of swearing when you get hit in the inner thigh with the stun gun and you weren't expecting it...and you always let go)

Also, despite all claims and advirtisements that the RNC will put a big dude out in just a few seconds, I have yet to see it happen. I'm not saying it can't, just that outside of a BJJ mat it generally doesn't. Too many little factors, usually too little training on the part of the guy executing the choke, etc.

I mean, some folks can cut through four mats in a row, but is that "standard" for a zornhau? I dunno... combat is different from practice, much as we try to make the two line up.

Also, OT, for concerned parties, the guy that attacked me didn't mean me any harm, but he was one of those instable types that didn't know when he had gone too far, and if I had retaliated with "proportionate" force (an elbow or someting) it would have escalated the situation to something legitimately dangerous (this guy was my roomate...I slept with an 8-inch bowie under my pillow just for him, just in case). So I increased the level of force beyond what I thought he was willing, consciously, to deal with. It worked. If it hadn't, I would have stabbed him in the leg. If he kept on me I would have gone for the ligaments on his arm. It would have been bad.

So I'm glad he let go. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Jake

[Mike Cartier]

That body triangle will set you up for your opponent to put a nice knee pinch on you.

Hi Jeff
Well i would have to see this technique you are talking about, i am rather dubious of it being useable in that situation. If the guy being RNCed doesn't use both his hand to control the choke he is gonna be out quick. Plus i think the legs are locked very fast. You will have to show me this at the next ARMA event.

yes Catch has lots of cool leg locks, i am not sure there is much than can be done to the legs from the body triangle thoough we will have to see. Regular hooks leave more of the leg and ankle free to attack. But there is still the issue of the guy on your back waiting to choke you into unconsiousness while you are messing around with the guys legs.


Take a look at this text from antiquity, its the story of Arrichion winner of the Pankration event at the 54th Olympiad (564 B.C)

Accordingly, the antagonist of Arrichion, having already clinched him around the middle, thought to kill him; already he had wound his forearm about the other's throat to shut off the breathing, while, pressing his legs on the groins and winding his feet one inside each knee of his adversary, he forestalled Arrichion's resistance by choking him till the sleep of death thus induced began to creep over his senses. But in relaxing the tension of his legs he failed to forestall the scheme of Arrichion; for the latter kicked back with the sole of his right foot (as the result of which his right side was imperiled since now his knee was hanging unsupported), then with his groin he holds his adversary tight till he can no longer resist, and throwing his weight down toward the left while he locks the latter's foot tightly inside his own knee, by this violent outward thrust he wrenches the ankle from its socket. Arrichion's soul, though it makes him feeble as it leaves his body, yet gives him the strength to achieve that for which he strives.

from Philostratus Imagines

As you can see he pulls of the ankle to free himself but only becasues he managed to get one of his legs free to gain the space to do so. Unfortunatly he took too long and is killed even as his choker submits giving him the win.


Jake yeah I agree that weapons mess up grappling, but sometimes you end up on the back in a scramble.
RNC takes technique trained extensively under pressure, so you can't look at the effects of the minimally trained to see how quick the RNC can take you out, people who lack the skill take too long to get it on, don't use proper leverage and don't sink it in correctly. It takes quite a qhile rolling on the mats to start slapping the RNC on quick and sinking it in.

As far as stabbing the fellow in the leg with a knife when he puts on a RNC i would disagree. I think you should be using your knife to stab him in the rib cage, thats extreme injury whereas a stab in the leg will hurt but not everyone lets go if you just hurt them. It will however gaurantee absolutly that you will nevr wake up from being choked out however as i imagine he would be quite angry with you <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
But if you took your knife and reached back under one of your arms you would stick him right in the lungs or ribcage. I htink that would definatly make him let go if not permantly injure him.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Mike

Well i would have to see this technique you are talking about, i am rather dubious of it being useable in that situation. If the guy being RNCed doesn't use both his hand to control the choke he is gonna be out quick. Plus i think the legs are locked very fast. You will have to show me this at the next ARMA event.

Yes i know what you mean it is dubious at best when it is described as opposed to when it is actualy shown.

the text actualy sound's similar to what Hatmaker calls a salt water crab(?) it is a very effective technique.


Jeff

[Mike Cartier]

haha salt water crab, i love the name.

[David_Knight]

Jeff,

I'd have to side with Mike on this one (though naturally we are both biased). There is arguably a counter for every martial arts technique ever invented, including every strike we practice in ARMA, so the possibility that a well-trained catch wrestler might be able to withstand the RNC long enough to attempt a counter to my body triangle in no ways proves that the RNC is ineffective. As you describe the counter, it seems I could just extend my right foot beyond his grasp if I anticipated it, no?

The principle behind the USMC's old LINE system was to bring about certain involuntary muscle reactions in the enemy and then attack the resulting openings (most males will reach for their groin when it is pulled, their eye when it is gouged, etc.). The RNC works in a similar way. I've found that unless somebody has trained extensively to remain calm while being choked, they will immediately panic and focus entirely on defending against the RNC. It's human instinct. A properly executed RNC exerts tremendous pressure on both the throat and the sides of the neck in ways that very few people can withstand for more than a moment. But again, just like every other technique, the key is to know how to do it right...