Trying out basket hilt swords

[Lance Chan]

Recently we've made 2 basket hilt swords to play with. The first one is having a smaller basket but with a cross-guard with its handling characteristics modelled after this piece:


http://www.angustrimdirect.com/models/35/35home.htm

The other one was modelled after this piece that was lack of the crossguard but with a bigger basket in our version.

http://www.angustrimdirect.com/models/35/35_600w.jpg

I tried the latter one first in a couple training sessions with my student and found that the basket-hilt sword was very dominating against the german style longsword. Since the basket-hilt provided total protection to the hand, the sword wielder can bind with the knuckle and defeat the longsword's power through leverage advantage. It can easily beat the strikes from the longsword aside, or stay in bind while using the offhand to push the oppnent aside as the sword wielder wishes. From that training, I figured I can take a basket-hilt sword simply as a buckler with sword blade in one hand, giving me another hand for free movement. I know for political correct reason there's no superior sword, but hell, I can't help to think that's so superior indeed! I can't imagine what if I have a shield on the left arm too.... damn too dominating.

Today I tried the first basket-hilt sword we made in our weekly open sparring session and took videos. Here're the results:


http://www.rsw.com.hk/basket-hilt-1.zip
18mb

Against my student using a Chinese Jian. I found that it was a more difficult opponent to face for the basket hilt because it can disengage easier than the longsword. So not as much leverage advantage as I can gain from binding with a longsword. But still I have plenty advantages and the result showed.


http://www.rsw.com.hk/basket-hilt-2.zip
13.7mb

Partial video against a friend who is traditionally trained in katana. Fighting against the katana gave me a lot more familiarity than against the Chinese Jian since I've experience in sparring against a longsword. The katana, lacking of length, the cross guard and the false edge, gave me even less troubles than when I faced german style longsword and the result showed more or less a slaughter.

I think I've chosen my next style to practice already.

[Logan Weed]

And some swords are better suited to unarmored duels than others. If you assumed some form of hand protection than the basket would be redundant.

Not to say you can't duel with a two handed sword, but I was under the impression such weapons were a response to the increasingly protective armors of the day.

Some very nice swordwork against that Jian though
Did I notice a strike to his face with the basket before that neck cut?

[Allen Johnson]

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY THIS WHOLE TIME!!!
Kidding ...kinda.
Seriously, I love the baskethilt. It's easily my favorite weapon. Not only because of the Scottish culture that embraced it for so long, but also for it's wonderful versatility. I havent watched your videos yet but I'll give my 2 bits after I see them.

Lance, I think you are having server issues. I cant get to the vids.

[Lance Chan]

I was fixing my computer and had shut it down for a while. The videos should be up again. Please check and see the basket power!

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY THIS WHOLE TIME!!!
Kidding ...kinda.
Seriously, I love the baskethilt. It's easily my favorite weapon. Not only because of the Scottish culture that embraced it for so long, but also for it's wonderful versatility. I havent watched your videos yet but I'll give my 2 bits after I see them.

Lance, I think you are having server issues. I cant get to the vids.

[Lance Chan]

I think you're right... when there were armor, the need of basket was not as high.

Yes, I struck with the basket as well. Just as I would if I were wielding a buckler.

And some swords are better suited to unarmored duels than others. If you assumed some form of hand protection than the basket would be redundant.

Not to say you can't duel with a two handed sword, but I was under the impression such weapons were a response to the increasingly protective armors of the day.

Some very nice swordwork against that Jian though
Did I notice a strike to his face with the basket before that neck cut?

[Allen Johnson]

ok finally got to see the vids.

It's hard to make criticisms when you win all the time but I will anyway

in the Basket Hilt 1 video-
Eventhough you were winning...
You used mainly wrist and elbow cuts. Very few full arm cuts. This isnt really a bad thing, just know that they were used alot. I can't remember who, but one of the broadsword masters instructs not to 'break your wrist' meaning, dont let it bend when you cut. Obviously there is going to be some movement of the wrist but not as much as a rapier or something like that.

There are 4 (or 5) basic broadsword guards:
(With sword in Right hand- I noticed you switched hands and still was winning-- very cool )

Outside- Hilt held out to the right of your body with the blade angled up and to the left

Inside- Hilt held to the left of your body with blade angled up and to the right

Hanging or True Guardant- Hilt is held above your head with the blade angled down and to the left. (opinions range on if the tip should be pointed at yourself of the enemy- I prefer the enemy) Allowing you to look at your opponent from under your arm.

Middle- In between Inside and outside- Similar to Pflug (many contested that this is not really a ward but a transition between inside and outside. There is some reasoning there since you really dont want to bind with anyone at that position.)

St. George- Hilt is held above your head with the blade parallel to your shoulders. Sir William Hope and others said this is use very rarely. Personally I never use it at all. I find there is nothing that the St. George does for me that True Guardant does not do better.

So those are the basic wards. Might want to play around with those.

Your space looked to be somewhat limited but you might want to throw in more traversing steps. use that hilt to really manipulate their blade out of the way. Combine that with a traversing step, use that off hand to sieze, push or throw, then follow it up with a nice cut and you have a very sexy combo.

I noticed alot of very light touches that were counted as hits. Some that even a normal wollen jacket would have protected, much less a simple jack or buff coat. I know it may just be consideration to your training partners and their experience but thats just something to consider.

Basket hilt 2 vid:
Much the same as above.
I started to notice something by this time. Your opponents, for the most part, after they make their initial attack, really have no idea what to do. Many of them make their cut (and if they are not hit by you already) kinda freeze- or they stumble and sort of flail at you. It appears you took good advantage of this but just wanted to call that out.

Good work! We really need more basket hilt work here- It's a wonderful weapon!

[Nathan Robinson]

That sword is in my own collection. The handling characteristics, while quite nice in the hand, aren't based on anything in particular in terms of historical swords or antiques. For the life of me, I can't figure out what the blade is based on. I've not really seen a sword blade with its appearance mated to this type of basket before. The antique on which it is based is quite different. Having said all that, the sword feels great in the hand and while in motion. It has great dynamics and handles wonderfully. I just wished it was based on some historical research.

[Lance Chan]

Thanks Allen for your instructions. You gave me more material to work with definitely. I was not trained in basket hilt before so please excuse my lack of proficiency with it.

Thanks Nathan for your information too. I don't know if it's coincidence but I do find that the second basket hilt sword that was modelled after the armour class one, was easier to manuevor the basket around. I think the balance facilitated that quick movement. If I'm to make a basket hilt for myself, I'll go for the armour class one. In fact... I may buy a real one there.

[Allen Johnson]

Nathan: I have basket envy!!! Thats a great hilt- though I agree with you on the blade. I'd rather have it like the original. I think I like the cross with the upturned/downturned quillions better too.
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/display ... =15&pos=50

Lance: It wasnt negative criticism in the least...like I said- you kept winning so what could I really say? You were getting the job done!

Think about adding a targe to the baskethilt. Its alot of fun to use and really opens up more options in the fight. Your fight will turn from a right foot forward more thrust oriented offence to a left foot forward more cut oriented offence. I feel this style is much more familiar to those who have studied more medieval systems.

Let me know if you are interested in looking at period broadsword manuals.

[Lance Chan]

Let me know if you are interested in looking at period broadsword manuals.

Yes, I am! Do you have any handy online sources for me to take a look?

[Allen Johnson]

Note that many baskethilts are backswords. Alot of 17th and 18th century texts deal with backswords and most of those are applicable.

A few are available here:
Though not commonly thought of as a "broadsword" manual George Silver does favor a 'closed hilt' sword. So it certainly applies.
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/GSilver.htm
http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/BriefInstruct.htm

There is also Hungarian & Highland Broadsword:
http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/HungarianHig ... dsword.pdf
It's not much in the way of loads of info but its got some principals illustrated.

If you are an ARMA member then there are 4 manuals by Sir William Hope in the ARMARIA. You just have to be careful and identify when he's talking about broadsword or spadroon, or smallsword.

There is Thomas Page's 'Use of the Broadsword'
http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Page/Page.php

Captain Godfrey's 'Treatise Upon the Useful Science of Defense'
http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Godfrey/

As mentioned above Sir William Hope (some of his works are here if you arent an ARMA member)
http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Hope/

The Chivalry Bookshelf has two books that may be of interest:
Highland Swordsmanship: Techniques of the Scottish Swordmasters- http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAct ... &ProdID=10
This book contains the Writings of Donald McBane (which is a very entertaining read even if you have no interest in swordsmanship) and Sir William Hope's 'New Method'.

the other is:
Highland Broadsword: Techniques of the Scottish Regiments-
http://www.revival.us/index.asp?PageAct ... &ProdID=21
This contains, "Anti-Pugilism" by Sinclair, illustrated with copper plate engravings; MacGregor’s "Lectures on the Art of Defence;" "The Art of Defence on Foot with Broadsword and Saber" by Taylor; "Fencing Familiarized" by Mathewson; and Henry Angelo’s "On the Use of the Broadsword".

I have both of these and feel they are worth the money if for nothing other than the manuals within them. Some of the rest of the content is great. Some of it is less than that. (Highland Swordsmanship has pictures of some absolutley horrific reenactors portraying the techniques. The swordplay itself is fine, they are just dressed very innacurate.)

That should be more than enough to get you going Remember that there are lots of different baskethilts, Scottish, Mortuary hilts, Schivonas, etc. The blade type and considerations of what you are doing with it will alter how you train. Good luck!

Feel free to keep any conversation on baskethilts going!

[Allen Johnson]

just as a little primer...
here are a few pictures of me at a recent Scottish Highland festival I was working at.
There are several shots of me engaging someone in True Guardant/Hanging Ward.
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/vie ... id=5925636

[Lance Chan]

just as a little primer...
here are a few pictures of me at a recent Scottish Highland festival I was working at.
There are several shots of me engaging someone in True Guardant/Hanging Ward.
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/vie ... id=5925636

I've to give you a big thank for providing so many materials to me. Your enthusiasm for the basket hilt is well noted! Thanks!

[Allen Johnson]

Youre welcome
Oh! Forgot one!
Pick up Terry Brown's book 'English Martial Arts'. It has a good broadsword/backsword section in it. It's very easy to follow and somewhat cheaper than most sword books:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/189828 ... 62?ie=UTF8

[Nathan Robinson]

Nathan: I have basket envy!!! Thats a great hilt- though I agree with you on the blade. I'd rather have it like the original. I think I like the cross with the upturned/downturned quillions better too.
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/display ... =15&pos=50

Hi Allen-

I love the original that you just linked to. That is, however, not the sword that inspired this replica.

The inspiration comes from a sword in E.B. Erickson's (the hilt maker) own cllection. Here are some photos that have the sword in it:



Others:
http://img177.echo.cx/img177/8919/mb13cg.jpg
http://img177.echo.cx/img177/4694/mb35qe.jpg
http://img177.echo.cx/img177/4486/mb49fz.jpg
http://img177.echo.cx/img177/7374/mb71wa.jpg

The proportions are similar to the replica, but the odd fuller arrangement on it doesn't seem to reflect the antique or any other antique of its type/era that I've seen. I can see how the photos would make it look more similar than it is, though. The antique blade of ElJay's is odd in itself.