sword&shield vs. longsword

[joelthompson1]

Question: The advantages and disadvantages of fighting with longsword against sword & shield have been discussed before. But we discovered this in a practice. Has anyone tried using half-swording techniques as the primary defense and offense? I don't mean using traditional longsword stances and guards combined with an occasional half-swording move. I mean begin in a half-swording stance and continue the fight using half-swording almost exclusively, with the other cuts used only when an opening presents itself. We tried this, and it seemed to work very well. It seemed to take away the advantages usually enjoyed by the sword & shield fighter. It was easier to parry a strike and counter, and it seemed to take away the advantage of close range fighting that the sword & shield fighter normally has. Comments please. Is this a viable technique for this scenario?

[GaryGrzybek]

Hi Joel,

Not against sword and shield but for fun, I once went against someone with butterfly swords. The problem was that I could not break through his defenses because those short swords were just too darn fast. It was suggested that I try attacking with half sword and sure enough it worked. With better point control and speed I was able to thrust clean through to his chest.

[TimSheetz]

Hi Joel,
I haven't tried that, but I could easily see the half swording taking away the close in advantage of a shield, plus the extra power and leverage makes actions against the shield easier, I'd think.

Question? Was your shield a center grip or strap on? I think this is significant, as the strapped on shield has much more offensive ability and the center grip is more flexible.

Question? Was you shield wielder very flexible? Meaning, did he have the sense of when to drop his shield and maneuver for a good strike?

I am going to definitely try this soon!

Tim

[joelthompson1]

We were using strapped round shields, but we didn't really get to practice it much as it was near the end of our practice. It was an intiguing idea, though, so I put it up on the Forum.
So far, no negative comments. Looking forward to giving it more time at next practice.

[TimSheetz]

Joel,

Cool. I kind of prefer the strap on but the center grip is nice if yo think you may need to 'drop and adjust'.

Careful with the "rim punch" with the shield. Really effective but just a light touch with the shield against a face cage will really get their attention.. and little bit more impact will bounce their head around quite radically. (I know I don't need to tell you that, but for anyone else thinking of trying it, safety and control is important when dealing with accelerating that much mass into a training partner)

Good luck, looking forward to hearing about some more insights!

Tim

[Dustin Sanders]

yes, the halfswording flourish that gave us the idea starts off left foot forward in pflug (your in half sword
with your left hand at the blade). It starts if your opponent, (with the shield) does a #1,or a 2 (2 of the 3
basic overhead shots) at you. you use the cross of your sword to catch his blade and knock it to the side. he
will be in boars tooth and could nail you in the ribs, but by bashing him in the face with your pommel, it
should hurt him enough so he won't swing back immediately. Once you hit him with the pommel, he
stumbles back, your in a kinda wanna be zornhut (sp?), and ready to do a #3 on him, or take of his head
depending on the position of his shield at that moment. It's risky, but it could work.

[Guest]

Half swording never worked for me or my opponent in either long sword vs sword and target or great sword against sword and target, we found that the sword and target guy will intentionally strike at the grip.
I was, more often than not, the one with sword and target I think there's a big difference among fighting against a greatsword (you are at a disadvantage) or against a long sword (you are at an advantage). The great sword man can slash your target aside and dart in, can keep you at distance with the point, you being in his striking range, while he's not in yours. My best bet was, against both weapons, to engage the point of the enemy with the target and go for his forearms, if he had an high guard I tried to enter with the target high to meet the blade and the sword a bit lower to meet his arms. The sword and target man can do nothing unless he has removed the adversary's point from in front of his face, and will discompose his guard to take that point away.
Against the greatsword, target parries need to be done with strenght, but you become slower in executing them and the greatsword guy can profit from this feinting a powerful strike, thus making you stiffen yourself in a given defensive position and cut your target arm (beware of this).
The man with the two handed blade has to beware also those who will parry with the sword and crush his hands with the target.
That's all folks

[joelthompson1]

Carlo, you make some interesting points. I've not tried greatsword against sword & shield. With regard to longsword, however, in a half-swording attack I intend to be right in my opponent's face pressing the attack. I'll be moving my half-sword guards around a lot parrying, binding and looking for openings. I really don't feel that my opponent will have any more success targeting my grip than usual. But even granting the grip targeting possibility, don't you think that this is a better attack strategy than standing at range and using the other non-halfsword techniques? To me, this is the only thing I've seen that really reduces the advantage of sword & shield over longsword.

[Guest]

Targeting the hand can be done making your blade descend from point to hand along the grasped blade, if it does not move too much, but you can still immobilize it for an half second with the targe (I never used a large shield, I'd look like carrying a door <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> ), the buckler or the dagger.
Or you can press your sword against the long one to keep it still for the time needed to smash the hand with the targe.
I have to admit I'm not very good with the long sword, and I never used it much, against sword and target I would go for the legs reaching out unexpectedly with one hand ( maybe slipping the pommel), if the blow misses, you can still draw cut on the recover using the back edge.
Going close against sword and shield leaves me unwarded, it seems to me, because I can't see the blows in due time to parry them, the legs being the most exposed if my opponents bends over protecting himself with the shield and slashing at me.
I find that more distance and time favour the defence of the single weapon, I'm a bit better with the spear than with the long sword, with this weapon the basic "feint high, smash the tigh" works fine just as it's contrary combination (not to say for the "drop the point, draw cut rising between the legs with the back edge, but this is a bit unfair <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />" ). With pole weapons I found you can also hook the shield and go for the face while your opponent attempts to free the shield, maybe it works for you with the long sword in an inverted grip.
Anyhow I think you are much better at half swording than me.

[Dustin Sanders]

Hey, just got back a few hours ago from the seminar here in Virginia Beach. Near the end we talked about this idea. So far, John seems to be intrigued by it and was running it over and over in his head to see if it would work. If you have a longsword, you would most likely have armor on, (probably plate being in the 1300's+) right? (hence the lack of a shield) Well, that means, if you closed with the S&amp;S guy, you wouldn't have to worry that much about him bashing you with his shield, or trying to slice you. The moment he tried to swing at you when you were closing in fast on him, you would just catch his blade with your hilt, grab his shield, and well, there's a whole lota mess you can do. The only thing the S&amp;S guy can try to do is a close range thrust. If he's right handed, and you attack from his left, his shield will bind him up considerably. Then just trip him or slice the back of his neck, or pommel his head in. There are a few things that need to be worked out, but as for him attacking your hands, you can move your hands just as fast as he can, and when he swings, as I said, catch it with the hilt, use your free hand, and he's in a whole heck load of trouble. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

[TimSheetz]

Hi Dustin,

I'd like to see, hear and do more on this question myself.

A problem I see is that there are tons of variables.

Historically speaking, we can assume that the two are not in a judical duel as they are armed differently. So that brings in the consideration of the surroundings of the battlefield.

Another consideration that changes the variables is the size of the shield and whether is it strapped or a center grip.

I think the center grip allows the S&amp;S to quickly drop it and transition into the close fight.

If strapped, the shield can be used to attack even your armored enemy as you can bash with the rim. A sound bash to the head will disrupt even and armored opponent - the mass can be significant so I don't think it can be written off too quickly. The shield is not as maneuverable as a buckler but it shold be considered a maneuverable weapon, I think.

I don't think that any element of the fight will be that easy. Both weapon systems have huge advantages of different sorts... and nothing says you cant half sword a shorter sword, too... I just lots of room for all sorts of fascinating and 'unpleasant occurences' in that fight!

If we are talking about a battlefield then there is the secondary weapon consideration.. Long sword closing on the S&amp;S guy after displacing the S&amp;S sword.. the S&amp;S can drop sword and draw a dagger (behind his shield-) as the close takes place... in the bind drop the shield and grapple...

So many variables but it would be extremely enlightening to work them out (and fun, too). I just don't think that it would necessarily be that easy.

I predict that there will be no 'perfect technique' that nullifies the S&amp;S via the long sword, because the Martial Artist and the circumstances will always weigh too heavily on the fight. I just think that if both are skilled, it just is not that easy.

Plus, for every technique, there is a counter...

I am looking forward to see what comes out of your discussions there and the continous woring on this idea in the 'field'.

Sorry for rambling a bit.

Thanks,

Tim Sheetz

[Dustin Sanders]

Yes, very good points. There are a lot of variables. But the idea does sound interesting. So far we have always had it where the LS guys was pretty much had to be on the defensive b/c the S&amp;S guy would just close in very fast on the LS guy and try to bind him up with his shield. The only thing we could think of till now that the LS guy could do is go for the feet, (depending on the shield), the sword arm, or try to deflect the blow with his sword in one hand, while grabbing the shield with another. But even in that situation, there still are a lot of variables like, as you said, the type of shield (be it kite, round, heater, buckler, ect....) and armor, size, and such. but yes, good points. I'd like to experiment with this some more. Do any of the German on Italian manuals give examples of this kind of stuff?

[Guest]

Much of my sparring in the past was sword and dagger VS longsword, because my "opponent" was in love with the longsword and used only it for a period. I discovered that the long sword guy is very vulnerable to missiles, I used a very soft rubber dagger, and I hardly missed...then I was told it was not fair <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />.
Another dangerous combination for the long sword guy is club and shield, because properly used the club can knock away weapons with ease to disarm or create openings, it is also a formidable missile (it was my "opponent who used club and shield for a few months and he never threw it at me, but could hit still objects with accuracy and power).
But I think the longswordman's real nightmare is the spear ( it's me among us the one who liked the spear): too fast, too versatile and with too much reach (Silver gives the advantage to the spear over the two handed sword).
Interestingly "sword and shield" handles all these weapons better than "long sword", and I think this is a very important difference, because in the battlefield you find them all.