Fighting in light harness

[Jason Taylor]

I recently broke my toe--not doing any one of the 4 or so contact sports I partake in, of course, just walking into my living room and stubbing my toe--and so for the next 4-6 weeks they tell me no sparring or real active involvement in my WMA studies, at least on a physical basis.

This is a problem for me, since I cease to exist if I'm not productively engaged in some kind of training.

So this got me interested in doing more of the peripheral hobby I've been involved in, which is crafting stuff. Originally I thought about this only in terms of making a pair of nice steel gauntlets with a padded leather base to protect my hands (I still get hit there a lot), and that developed into a new interest in armor making.

This has led me to several questions:
1) All of the Harnisfechten I see done seems to be in heavy plate armor, possibly with chain. Do we practice in any kind of less extensive harness? I know that leather, chain, and lamellar (I think) armors of various sorts were used, at least by the regulars; I am guessing that many of the professional soldiers, at least, in a given army would probably get their hands on whatever protective technology they could make/afford and use that. So do we have any historic record of lighter armors, particularly hardened leather and related, being dealt with in the texts or other historical sources (iconography, etc.)? Would the techniques resemble more the standard Harnisfechten (lots of half-sword, etc.) or would it be much like Blossfechten, but with moderate protection in some places?

2) I've been thinking about making mail. (It's something I can do watching TV and sitting). I've found sites aplenty saying how to do it, mostly suggesting the use of mild steel wire around 18 gauge and a winding apparatus. Another site suggested making riveted chain with something called an external circlip. These sites, however, were all SCA or SCA affiliates, which puts a big question mark by the info for me. Does mild steel work for this kind of thing? I know a number of ARMA members do work in harness that I'm sure includes a chain hauberk--do you guys know what kind of metal it is, and how well it works? I've heard that the metal wires you can get now don't work for chain because of some structural/molecular flaw. Also, I'm wondering if external circlips are going to be an even remotely appropriate kind of metal. Anyone know anything about this?

3) Boiled leather. This seems pretty easy to work with, and sounds like an interesting project. But there are a lot of methods out there. I know that the wax-hardening methods are not historical (from what I've seen), but does anybody know about the period authenticity of this kind of armor? Who would use cuir bouilli on the field? Is any method of production better, or more authentic, than another one?

Thanks in advance for any info. Sorry for the long Post of Doom.

Jason

[Brian Hunt]

Oh Boy,

why don't you just ask for a doctorial reseach project.

I will give some brief answers.

Yes, lighter sets of harness were used, look at the 3/4 harness used in the 16th century, often by lanskenects or look at Archer's armour that often consisted of a padded jack, a kettle helm and some leg and arm armour - usually just over the joints. Armour was often dictated by current popular trends, but was also limited by what you could afford. A powerful and rich knight or king would have had the latest in metal wear, whereas someone poorer may have had to make do with what he could afford.

We do have some documentation for the use of leather armour in tourney's where whale bone swords were used and we have one surviving leather arm protection but I don't remember which musuem has it. Debate abounds about whether it was worn in war but looking at various images and effigies, it may or may not have been worn by some of the earlier crusadors though the jury is out on this one.

Mail. Historically it was riveted. It was often combined with solid rings alternated with riveted rings. I use either 16 or 18 gage soft tie wire for my rings. Here is a basic overview of how to make riveted mail, I make riveted mail and it is a terribly tedious process. http://www.forth-armoury.com/research/theory_and_technique.htm Circlips are cost prohibitive since they have to be made to such tight tolerances, if you don't want to make your own rings you might try to wait for Forth Armoury to get some in stock and buy some, or the ringlord sells precut overlapped rings that would have to be annealed then flattened, punched and riveted. Also there is a Yahoo group on riveted mail that has some of the best info you can find on various ways to make it. You will either have to make some tools, or buy some as well. You will need a way to flatten your rings, anneal them, punch them, and set your rivets.

I prefer to bake my leather, better control and less chance of over-cooking it like you can with boiling water. This guy does some nice SCA leather armour and has a couple of good tutorials at the bottom of his gallery page
http://www.houseofthewolf.com/

That should help get you started.

if you have any specific questions, I will be happy to answer them if I have the knowledge you need.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com

[Jason Taylor]

Thanks for the info. I'm liking the look of the various kits available from Forth, but they're out of stock on everything, which looks like it'll probably be chronic. I'll have to contact them about a backorder.

In the meantime, there's always leather and sheet metal to work with....

Jason

[Brian Hunt]

You have to keep an eye on Forth, he gets stuff in stock and it sells out very quickly, so check back often. I bought 3 pounds of rings from him earlier this year to finish up a aventail I am in the middle of.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com

[Keith Culbertson]

Certainly not all maile was riveted, although that is the strongest ring construction. I used almost a mile of 14 g galvanized steel fencing wire (spool) to make a very durable hauberk. Yes, you have to go over it regularly with two pairs of pliers to reset twisted rings after battle, but all armor needs care---besides, 14 g takes a lot of punishment before it moves! And working it is a fantastic forearm workout. If you use a 3/8" inside measure, the single weave is pretty good, but I made a doubleweave with 1/2" inside dia. If you use 16 g, then go ahaead and make a smaller ring, 5/16 or such.

happy crafting

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Keith,

if you are talking about Japanese mail and some middle eastern stuff then yes butted existed in their cultures. All the research I have read says that European mail was riveted. Roman tended to use round rivets and later European mail tended to use wedge rivets. If you have research showing that butted mail was used historically by Europeans for anything other than deocration please share it, but I have never seen any research that says different.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com

[Brent Lambell]

Brian, I get the impression you are far better researched on this subject than I, but I have also not found any evidence of butted mail for field armor. There are some videos on the ARMA website that show cuts against butted and riveted chain - its clear why they riveted it.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Brent,

this is taken from the wikipedia article on Mail armour.

Historically, in Europe, from the pre-Roman period on, the rings composing a piece of mail would be riveted shut, to reduce the chance of the rings splitting open when subjected to a thrusting attack or a hit by an arrow. Due to the triangular points of the rivet heads, many armorers designed their mail with the pointed sides out, thus creating a very distinct "inside" and "outside".

Up until the 14th century mail was either made of alternating rows of both riveted rings and solid rings, or from riveted rings only. Both would have been made using wrought iron. Wire for the riveted rings was formed by either of two methods. One was to hammer out wrought iron to roughly the correct size. The other, more effective method was to draw a thin piece of it through a metal cone, reducing it in diameter, lengthening it, and forming it into a round shape. This was done repeatedly until the desired gauge was achieved. Waterwheel powered drawing mills are pictured in several period manuscripts. The solid links would have been made by punching from a sheet. Forge welding was also used to create solid links, but the only known example from Europe is that of the 7th century Coppergate mail drape. Outside of Europe this practice was more common such as the well known "theta" links from India.

This is a fairly accurate synopsis of mail in Europe, despite originating at wikipedia.

I have yet to see anything contrary to the information stated here, and I have been studing armour since 1980. I started making butted maile in 1982, and I also cut up a volkswagon for my first very crude suit of armour that same year.

It has only been within the last few years that I actally learned how to make rivited maile, though I knew of it's existence and the inaccuracy of my butted maile efforts when I first started weaving the stuff.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com

[Brent Lambell]

I have helped make many mail shirts and some barding, but its all been butted rings. I dont think I have the patience for riveting to be honest, maybe one day. I have also read in one of Ewart Oakeshott's books about the alternating riveted rings and punched rings, that is actually something I might actually try some day. Cuts out on some of the grunt work at least and I imagine its even more effective than all riveted links.

By the way Brian - I love Wikipedia, lots of great info in there if you can sort through some of the inaccuracies. I get the impression ARMA members have spent some time there, theres a lot of great articles on HEMA and related subjects.

[Jason Taylor]

Darn it! Forth armory just closed its doors for good. Now I'm going to have to learn how to make my own riveting rings, which sounds like an enormous pain. Or I guess the local metal fabricator could probably do it....for a ton of money, more than likely....

Jason

[JeffGentry]

Darn it! Forth armory just closed its doors for good. Now I'm going to have to learn how to make my own riveting rings, which sounds like an enormous pain. Or I guess the local metal fabricator could probably do it....for a ton of money, more than likely....

Jason

You can buy them here.

http://www.theringlord.com/

Jeff

[Brian Hunt]

Yeah,

I was bummed to find out Fourth had closed the doors. The Ring Lord doesn't have prepunched and pre-flattened rings availible. The closest thing they have are pre-overlapped rings. You could then anneal these (a charcoal barbaque will work), flatten and punch them yourself.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com

[Mike_Van_Dusen]

I've used some butted mail a friend and I originally made just for fun. I don't see why it couldn't be used in training.

However, try test cutting it and you'll see why they riveted it. This might not be the best way to do it, but we put it over a piece of pumpkin. Not only did we tear a hole 5-7 inches long, and cut deeply into the pumpkin, but the loose rings were buried almost an inch inside the fleshy part of the pumpkin. Ouch! A good reason to wear something like a gambeson under it.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Brian

http://theringlord.com/cart/shopdisplaycategories.asp?id=154&cat=Riveting+Rings

You just didn't look in the right place.

Jeff

[Jeffrey Hull]

The closest thing they have are pre-overlapped rings. You could then anneal these (a charcoal barbaque will work), flatten and punch them yourself.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com

I should know this, but do not -- would a hauberk-maker then take the whole finished coat and try and harden then temper the rings, or is that impossible/undeisrable, so he would leave the thing with the rings in the annealed state?