possible crossover?

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Rod-Thornton
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Re: possible crossover?

Postby Rod-Thornton » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:40 pm

Hello there Jonathan. As others have chimed in, WD-40 is an excellent preservative for steel longswords. I live right on the sea coast and fight salt air and corrosion on all things constantly. But a small coat of car wax on my sword makes it a complete non-issue. You might try that! You state that in your experience it is easier to care for the katana over the longsword. I am curious how so?

Also, you state that you hope to soon be a member of ARMA... If you read through the website material you will see that while many articles touch upon and acknowledge the quality of Asian swords and technique, the ARMA is about Western Martial technique, and more specifically, European styles. Now that doesn't mean the longsword is the only weapon...there are a number of single-edged swords that the ARMA explores, but the longsword is so fundamental to giving today's modern enthusiast the greatest, most comprehensive orientation to fencing skills and demands that I think learning it first is the most helpful. Are they transferable you ask? Sure...if you speak of the skills of range, timing, distance and energy. No, if you speak of techniques, tactics, and some cutting motions. As to your second question, what are you looking for? A Western tradition? Sure, ARMA can give you that. But if your interest is in the katana, that particular style is definitely asian and not western or european.

Jonathan Ellis wrote:Hi there. This is my first post and I hope to be a member of ARMA soon. I have a question about technique. I am trying to study the european longsword and was wondering if the skills would translate to the katana. The reason for this question is that, in my experience it is easier to care for a katana than a longsword because the grip comes off and thus is able to receive the same rust preventing care that the blade gets. I also like the thicker tang on the katana. Seeing that buying a sword is a pretty major investment to me I am looking for one that will last. Ok so there are two questions in here.

1) Are the skills transferable? and...
2) Is it possible to get what I'm looking for in a European longsword?
Thanks for your time.
Rod W. Thornton, Scholar Adept (Longsword)
ARMA-Virginia Beach Study Group

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Jonathan Ellis
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not quite getting it...

Postby Jonathan Ellis » Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:07 pm

Ok first I want to point out that I already know that the katana is different than a longsword.

Second I want to remind you that I stated that I know that the katana does not translate into longsword well, and that I am wondering if the reverse is plausible.

In regards to the swords listed; the tang is "exposed" however try taking the handle grip off.

My point was that I love the longsword, but there are things that I think it lacks, Like the ability to clean and maintain the tang.

A swordsman's life rested on his sword, and his maintenance thereof. The only reason I like the katana whatsoever is for its maintainability.

If there were a crossover blade that featured the maintainability of the katana and the beautiful blade of the longsword, not to mention the cross guard, I would be skeptical but inside my heart would jump. Does that clarify what I mean?

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Jaron Bernstein
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Postby Jaron Bernstein » Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:14 pm

Scott A. Richardson wrote:I'd like to point out that its not merely in the number of edges that the longsword differs from the katana. There is also the fact that the swordsman has the option of using the quillions for defense, the scent stopper for offense, and the ricasso for shortened blade techniques -- which, in a sense, are almost like a whole different weapon. The katana does not offer this versatility. Plus of course there are the moves in which the sword is turned around entirely, an option which again the katana does not offer. Finally, there is the fact that the blade can be used to either chop, slice, or thrust, whereas the katana is used almost exclusively to slice. So put all this together and what we have is a system which is vastly different from -- and, in my admittedly biased opinion, superior to -- the system developed for the katana.


You can certainly use the pommel on a katana and you can halfsword by placing your hand on the back (dull) edge. I just found that they handle very differently due to the length, curvature and edge design differences.

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Jeff Hansen
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Re: not quite getting it...

Postby Jeff Hansen » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:03 am

Jonathan Ellis wrote:My point was that I love the longsword, but there are things that I think it lacks, Like the ability to clean and maintain the tang.

A swordsman's life rested on his sword, and his maintenance thereof. The only reason I like the katana whatsoever is for its maintainability.

If there were a crossover blade that featured the maintainability of the katana and the beautiful blade of the longsword, not to mention the cross guard, I would be skeptical but inside my heart would jump. Does that clarify what I mean?


I think you are overestimating the need for maintenance. Unless you plan on leaving your sword out in the yard, exposed to the elements, or dipping it in salt water on a regular basis, The inability to access the tang is a non-issue. As long as it's kept indoors, even if you never even wiped the blade down with an oily rag, your children would be long dead of old age before any oxidation went beyond aesthetics to actual stuctural damage. I grew up on a farm, and we had a old reaping sythe hanging on the wall of the shed that probably had been hanging there untouched for 50 years. I seriously doubt that anyone even bothered to wipe it down after use, and it had nothing more than a suface patina of rust. If you truly love the European longsword; Get One, and get to work!
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Matthew_Anderson
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Re: not quite getting it...

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:37 am

Jeff Hansen wrote:
Jonathan Ellis wrote:My point was that I love the longsword, but there are things that I think it lacks, Like the ability to clean and maintain the tang.

A swordsman's life rested on his sword, and his maintenance thereof. The only reason I like the katana whatsoever is for its maintainability.

If there were a crossover blade that featured the maintainability of the katana and the beautiful blade of the longsword, not to mention the cross guard, I would be skeptical but inside my heart would jump. Does that clarify what I mean?


I think you are overestimating the need for maintenance. Unless you plan on leaving your sword out in the yard, exposed to the elements, or dipping it in salt water on a regular basis, The inability to access the tang is a non-issue. As long as it's kept indoors, even if you never even wiped the blade down with an oily rag, your children would be long dead of old age before any oxidation went beyond aesthetics to actual stuctural damage. I grew up on a farm, and we had a old reaping sythe hanging on the wall of the shed that probably had been hanging there untouched for 50 years. I seriously doubt that anyone even bothered to wipe it down after use, and it had nothing more than a suface patina of rust. If you truly love the European longsword; Get One, and get to work!


Absolutely. Many swords were passed down from generation to generation and many 13th/14th/15th c. examples are still quite functional today. In most cases, I doubt the hilts were ever disassembled for the purpose of cleaning or corrosion removal, though they have have had grips replaced due to wear and tear or changes in style.
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Matt Bryant
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Postby Matt Bryant » Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:50 pm

Agreed. The need to maintain the tang is nonexistent. Also, a good and beefy tang is exactly what you will get as long as you buy a quality sword. No rat-tail tangs and the like. Ironically, if you want a longsword with removable furniture, it will have a crappy tang to accommodate the threaded pommel. All of the historical longswords I have seen pictures of had thick, strong tangs.
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Shane Smith
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Postby Shane Smith » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:14 pm

Matt Bryant wrote:Agreed. The need to maintain the tang is nonexistent. Also, a good and beefy tang is exactly what you will get as long as you buy a quality sword. No rat-tail tangs and the like. Ironically, if you want a longsword with removable furniture, it will have a crappy tang to accommodate the threaded pommel. All of the historical longswords I have seen pictures of had thick, strong tangs.


There were historical blades from the 15th century with screw on pommels. One technique in the armoured texts describes unsrewing your pommel and throwing it at the other guy as you close. :shock:
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Eric Dohner
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Postby Eric Dohner » Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:25 pm

Shane Smith wrote:There were historical blades from the 15th century with screw on pommels. One technique in the armoured texts describes unsrewing your pommel and throwing it at the other guy as you close. :shock:


Is there any good way to test this? It seems at first glance like the fechtbuch equivalent of some of the ridiculous "poke him in the eyes with the ends of your glasses" "techniques" that certain self-defense or karate instructors will teach you.
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Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:09 am

Will Adamson wrote:BTW, how does one parry with a katana? I had heard somewhere about using what would be our false edge since it is flat on a katana, but that wrist position seems rather akward and weak. I'm thinking that if they have parrying at all it must be done with the flat or counter cutting edge on flat.


This is actually where Japanese swordsmanship displays its most striking similarity to the Western tradition--their paradigm of defense emphasizes attacking first before the enemy could do anything or, failing that, launching a counterattack as quickly as possible while voiding or warding against the enemy's strikes. The relatively short length of the katana gives somewhat more emphasis on voiding, whether by sidestepping or moving out of range, than on deflecting or parrying the enemy's blade.

It's true that kenjutsu employs the flat and the unsharpened back of the blade to block the enemy's strike in some cases, but these techniques form only a very small subset of the defensive repertoire. Like I said before, most of the defensive techniques I've seen there emphasize voiding instead of blade-to-blade opposition, whether with a simultaneous counterattack or not.

Honestly, I think the katana is quite like the rapier in this respect--a highly specialized sword designed for use in the confined spaces of urban combat against unarmored foes. Where rapiers emphasize the thrust, the katana uses its short length to ensure continued effectiveness when fighting in narrow alleys or indoor situations. The numerous iai (striking on the draw) techniques are obviously designed to get an edge in such urban/indoors combat situations--especially by getting the first strike against the potential opponent. It is worth noting that many iai techniques start from a sitting/kneeling position, which is just perfect for taking an enemy unawares in the middle of a polite conversation or striking immediately upon the first signs of a brawl developing in a gambling den.

Note the emphasis on "urban." My personal opinion is that the longer reach of the European longsword gives it a considerable advantage over the katana in open terrain where space is not an issue. In confined spaces, however, the katana's smaller size, lighter weight, and ability to strike directly on the draw just about counterbalances the longsword's reach and ability to use the false edge, leading to more-or-less an even fight. Note that these speculations assume a fight between two equally skilled fighters, and as we all know such fights practically don't take place in reality--and in a real fight I'll almost always put my money on the more skilled fighter regardless of the weapon.

Oh, BTW, perhaps you'd like to examine your perception about the maintenance of Japanese swords as well. Even though the handle of a Japanese sword could be removed to expose the tang, the Japanese sword-polishers themselves don't bother to wipe the rust out of the tang; in fact, the extent and color of rust in the tang of a Japanese sword is considered an important determinant of age and hence value. Many clueless Western sword-collectors have ruined the historical value of their Japanese swords by cleaning the rust on their tangs--something they should never ever have done. Note that active red rust is damaging to the metal, but old, hardened black rust actually stabilizes and even protects the blade to some extent. The Europeans probably understood this as well and didn't worry about the rust on the tangs of their swords except if this rust stayed red and steadfastly refused to stabilize into the blackened form.

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Jonathan Ellis
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Thanks you guys

Postby Jonathan Ellis » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:21 am

Thanks for your input guys. It realy helped me in understanding things better. I now feel free to practice in the purity that ARMA demands.

Ok, now is there anything that I can do to encourage the stable black rust to form?
Thanks for your time.

EDIT: Also cold you guys offer some recomendations for swords/swordsmiths? Thanks again

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Shane Smith
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Re: Thanks you guys

Postby Shane Smith » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:28 am

Jonathan Ellis wrote:Thanks for your input guys. It realy helped me in understanding things better. I now feel free to practice in the purity that ARMA demands.

Ok, now is there anything that I can do to encourage the stable black rust to form?
Thanks for your time.


Just maintain the parts you can see and the parts you can't will generally see to themselves. I have sharps and blunts that I've used for years and then had them dismounted for a re-hilt and there was never any significant rust under the grips on the tang.

For swords, I like Albion. For Swordsmith's, I'd have to say I'm impressed with Kevin Cashen.
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AlexCSmith
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Re: Thanks you guys

Postby AlexCSmith » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:32 am

Jonathan Ellis wrote:Also cold you guys offer some recommendations for swords/sword smiths? Thanks again


I'll let someone more knowledgeable in the area answer this but the first thing they are gonna ask is:

"what is your budget?"
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Jonathan Ellis
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Budget? hmmm......

Postby Jonathan Ellis » Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:55 am

I realy have a limited budget, and would like a blade on the less expensive end. However given enough time I might be able to afford a decent one.

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Brent Lambell
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Postby Brent Lambell » Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:56 pm

Jonathon,

I am far from the most experienced swordsman here, but I have owned several low end "combat ready" swords and I highly recommend pinching your pennies and getting a high quality piece. Albion is the name I think you will hear more than any other for reason too numerous to count.

One reason for my recommendation - I broke a $200 piece test cutting a water-soaked newspaper roll. It snapped at the tang. Luckily, since it was only $200 I was able to laugh it off, but one guy there stated he believed it was a torsion break and it would have busted even if I was just flouryshing - the tang was no good. Plus, the weight and balance was not as good as it could have been.

I hope my two cents helps.

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Jim Churches
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Postby Jim Churches » Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:45 pm

Jonathan,
my recommendation is to first buy a quality waster, wood or plastic, and learn how to use it. Get one for your training partner as well, as these skills cannot be learned without active involvement with an opponent. Study the source manuals and translations that are available, hit the pell a lot, make some padded trainers, and fight, fight, fight. Information on all the above listed items are available in various locations on this Forum and the the ARMA website. Spend some time poking around, read the articles, and learn the ARMA method. After a short time, you should be ready to get a real steel sword (blunt or sharp) for test cutting and careful and controlled freeplay (blunt only!). I can only recommend Albion swords at this time. I have never been one to skimp on quality toys, but if you don't know what you're looking for and why, you'll make the same mistake I did and waste money on inferior tools. Hope this helps. Good luck in your endeavors here. Lastly, I must agree with several previous postings: you are far too worried about this 'rust and maintenance' thing. Take care of the visible parts and don't leave your toys out in the rain. They'll be fine.

Jim Churches
ARMA Las Vegas


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