Charron test cutting

[Jay Vail]

If you go to this site you will find several interesting short videos showing Bob Charron test cutting with fendente and sottani. The effect of the sottani is very interesting: much more devastating that I had anticipated. http://www.barbute.com/stmartin/gallery.htm

[Guest]

Well, it's hard to tell what the cutting medium is, looks like a cardboard tube or maybe a rolled up grass mat. But unless the cutting medium is something really tough, I don't find the results suprising at all, although the sotani is harder to do than a fendente. A sharp sword and a smooth, full arm cutting motion will generally prevail against soft targets.

[Guest]

Matt,

I agree, I watched all the videos. Nothing with intent or anything too impressive. The video's where more or less common sense stuff. The disarm from the first remedy video is crazy as the dagger's edge is too close to your arm and he is bringing the dagger into his own chest. He even said he can't strike him..huh? How about a strike to face? Or a kick to the knee? Why pull the dagger into yourself but instead drive him back and away by reaching under with the right hand grabbing the same wrist and breaking his arm?

The "Striking Targets of Abrazar" was good but again common sense stuff. It's much better to step with the rear leg, getting your leg between the opponents and then striking and to also knock them off balance with your weight behind you. He's way off balance with no foundation, all he really needs to do is extend his stance and bend the knees a bit.

You should have a good foundation before closing with someone and again applying good footwork...as with all martial arts.

Just my insights of a personal view and not that of ARMA's. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Well, yes, these videos are apparently from one of Bob Charron's seminars and he is demonstrating very slowly and carefully, which is good. However, I think it's important to demonstrate at speed with intent as well. Anyone can do techniques slowly with a cooperative partner, but it is very important for students to see what techniqes look like with speed and force behind them. As you well know, many techniques don't even work unless your partner is putting energy into it as well. If you never see things demonstrated at full speed, how do you know what you are working towards?

[Guest]

Matt,

Yes exactly! crawl, walk, run, charge and then apply it with 110% I think ARMA members have said this until thier blue in the face. This is a martial art so train with martial intent, plain and simple.

[Guest]

This is the guy translating Fiore for Chivalry Bookshelf, right? The videos were too blurry to make out any real mechanics other than the obvious stuff, and he appears from what I can tell to be using no martial intent whatsoever. I do hope that he just sticks to a literal transation and not an interpretation of the techniques (like Mr. Tobler did with Ringeck, [in which I thought the gaurds were a bit off]).

B.

[Matt Staats]

YES! If I'm going to pay good money to see a seminar, I want the guy to show the technique at full, or almost full speed! I can sit at home ant try and work out moves really slowly, at a seminar, I want to get a good workout and see some speed put on those techniques!

Was anyone at this seminar, was there any sparring? Did this guy ever prove that the moves work at "intent" speed?

-Matt

[Shane Smith]

Well, I was going to give you guys a very hard time for picking on this guy...UNTIL I watched the counter video's.The cutting videos were okay but man,those counter drills were an absolute snoozefest! <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" /> If the assisting Swordsman was likewise skilled(which I assume he is), Bob was unduly reserved in my opinion though I daresay it is unwise to assume that because he prefers to demonstrate things at low speed,that he is incapable of performing them with speed and intent. Anyone that has seen two skilled Swordsmen demonstrate things with intent knows what I mean,and further knows that the video's WERE lacking. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Matt Easton]

This is not really my business, but you guys are sounding rather rude... Constructive criticism is one thing, but some of the comments here go rather far over the mark, in tone at least.
I have never been to Bob's seminar, but members of my group have, and many friends of mine have, and while we have also translated the same source and also give seminars from our translation on the same source, it is widely accepted that Bob is at the forefront of Fiore studies, and an ernest scholar and excellent teacher.
Now as for online material - it is not an easy business putting this kind of material online - as some of you know, I myself am putting translation and interpretation material from Fiore online, but it is hard to get stuff to truly convey your message through electronic media. I can easily criticise what little I have online at the moment, and I could equally criticise material here on the ARMA site and in countless other places. First and foremost though it's important to thank and congratulate people for making the effort to share anything by putting it online or teaching - we don't have to do this!!
Then constructive criticism is usually accepted, but off-hand rudeness is pointless and egotistical.

Matt

[Brian Hunt]

I recently took Bob's seminar in Denver. I found it to be very well done. He does do things at a slower and controlled pace for his seminars due to the litigous nature of society today. There are times that during his demonstration he does do things with speed and intent. He is also a fairly laid back personality without the big dog syndrone you frequently find in martial arts of any kind. While we learned the techniques at a slower speed for safty - something that can be a good thing considering a lot of Fiores throws end in dislocations and broken heads - he also told us that we need to take what we have learned at his seminar back to our own schools and practice them with speed and intent to make them ours. I have found that I can do most of what I was shown at his seminar with speed and intent. We did not do any free sparring at this seminar, but the amount of information he was trying to squeeze into two days was almost overwhelming and he said he has cut back on what he trys to show at his seminars so that you can get a lot of hands on, instead of listening to him lecture without trying the techniques yourself. Jake Norwood was also at this seminar, my opinion may differ from his, but I found it informative and fun. I am looking forward to his books this fall. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Matt,

It certainly was not my intent to be rude, I realize it's a lot of work translating and interpreting manuscripts. I couldn't have done it.

You have to realize, however, that within ARMA, our goal is learning to execute techniques with realistic speed and energy as if we were training to fight for our lives. In fact, I prefer to see an instructor demonstrate a technique at speed first, so I can see how it should ultimately look when I've learned to do it correctly, then break it down and work it slowly. I've been to one of Bob Charron's seminars and it was very good. He seems like a nice guy, a good teacher, and very knowledgeable about the subject. He did not however, demonstrate anything at realistic speed. I can understand his unwillingness to do this with a group of strangers, but it is unfortunate, as I came away wondering if he, or anyone for that matter, could make these techniques work for real. When I asked him if he ever practices at speed, he said yes, but he never showed us what it would look like. Neither does any of his online material.

That being said, some of the posts here perhaps crossed the lines of common courtesy and became overly critical or downright rude and I apologize to Mr. Charron and the readers of this forum for my contribution to that.

[GaryGrzybek]

I'm going to have to agree with Matt here. Although we may not agree with the way Bob presents these techniques it is better to voice our dissaproval with constructive criticism in a professional manner. I have taken one of Bob's classes and although he does not display techniques with speed and intent I believe he is capable of doing so. Bob takes a slower and more methodical approach to his teachings, not a bad thing really. It is my opinion that he has broken some very good ground with Fiore and should be commended. It can also be said that he is very humble as an instructor and is more than willing to listen and keep an open mind, something we all need to do. Were all students in this art after all.

[John Jordan]

Interesting. I have the exact opposite view. I want slow, detailed instruction that I can then take back and evaluate for myself at speed.

[Randall Pleasant]

Interesting. I have the exact opposite view. I want slow, detailed instruction that I can then take back and evaluate for myself at speed.

John

You need both slow and at speed with intent. Remember that when a technique perform with speed and intent the two swords have a much greater amount of energy and thus their behavior is greatly different then when the technique is performed slow. In addiont when performing a technique slowing you can be lead to believe that you can perform footwork or body movements that just are not possible with the technique if performed at speed with an adversary is very interested in the technique not working for you! Practicing a technique only at slow speed can be and most often is very mis-leading!

I have attended Bob Charron class and really enjoyed it and got a lot out of it and I have encourage the members of the ARMA DFW study group to take Bob's class. I do not doubt that Bob can perform the techniques at speed. However, I feel that a lot of students, myself included, go home after the class not fully understanding how the techniques actually work because they have not seen the techniques performed at speed and with intent.

[Bart Walczak]

I'd like only to add, that those videos are pretty old, and that Bob's interpretation is constantly evolving (even now <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />. And he's always eager to listen to criticism. After all, this is how we all learn, don't we?

Plus one comment about executing techniques at speed: it can be done, when your partner does exactly, what he is supposed to do. Easy with basic cuts, but pretty hard with many complex techniques which involve some other action from your partner.

For example, I find it impossible to demonstrate the techniques from Codex Wallerstein at speed when I don't have a trusted partner (like Radek, for example). It just isn't going to work.

Just my two eurocents.