Share experiences! Cross-discipline sparring

[Jaron Bernstein]

In regards to those that have fought fencers:

What weapons did they use for the spar? I'd imagine that a foil/epee/sabre in sport fencing would likely snap from contact with a longsword.

If I wanted to test my skills against other sport fencers, what would I recommend them use?

Almost 2 years ago I played with the OSU sport fencing club for a session, mainly to get a taste of what sport fencing is about (my only weapon training being historical fencing). Firstly, if you do it, have a nice attitude with them. Who knows, some of them may like historical fencing enough to turn to the proverbial dark side. We did sparring with their tools and rules (epee, foil and saber, each of which have their own peculiarities). Then we sparred with (fibreglass and wood) rapier and dagger simulators. Grappling was barred beyond the initial entry and set up for a throw or strike as it was a wooden floor. My suggestion if you can find an amenable western sport fencer is to spar first with their rules and gear and then yours.

The Escrima/Kali types I met just love to spar with fairly loose rules. Have a good attitude, use the WMA tool(s) of your choice while they use the tools for their art. It is a lot of fun!

[Andrew F Ulrich]

I have no real experience sparring with other styles, but have recently moved to a larger city (phoenix) where this might now be possible. Seeing as I have no one to spar with down here, I'm considering maybe approaching some of the local kendo schools/clubs for sparring. They sound like they'd at least be good practice with upper-body techniques. As for myself, this is my second year in arma, but have had maybe one solid semester of training during that time. Any opinions on how worthwhile this idea might be? Also, any advice on how to approach, say, a MA school for sparring? I've asked a kenjutsu (not kendo) guy to spar once, but when I mentioned all the armor I had was just a fencing mask, he flatly refused (to be fair, he didn't own any shinai, just some very expensive bokken, which may also have been a factor in his decision), so especially advice on how to convince people that it's safe, and that I'm not some reckless fool looking to get hurt would be appreciated.

[CalebChow]

I have no real experience sparring with other styles, but have recently moved to a larger city (phoenix) where this might now be possible. Seeing as I have no one to spar with down here, I'm considering maybe approaching some of the local kendo schools/clubs for sparring. They sound like they'd at least be good practice with upper-body techniques. As for myself, this is my second year in arma, but have had maybe one solid semester of training during that time. Any opinions on how worthwhile this idea might be? Also, any advice on how to approach, say, a MA school for sparring? I've asked a kenjutsu (not kendo) guy to spar once, but when I mentioned all the armor I had was just a fencing mask, he flatly refused (to be fair, he didn't own any shinai, just some very expensive bokken, which may also have been a factor in his decision), so especially advice on how to convince people that it's safe, and that I'm not some reckless fool looking to get hurt would be appreciated.

Great question! I'm looking forward to an answer too.

[Sal Bertucci]

It's the whole "show don't tell" thing. If you talk about it, no matter how convincing you are, they will nod their head and think you're crazy. However, if you go there and show them real ARMA sparring they will see A) what you're talking about B) that you're competent, and C) Most importantly, that you are SAFE. Then the issue is if they have the same level of control, which is a different question entirely.

[Dylan Asbury]

You know, This thread may be dead but I HAVE to post since all sparring I've ever done was against people of other disciplines.

My friend took Tae Kwon Do for several years and they had a (sort of) weapon curriculum too including the sword and the staff. He used a real, unsharpened katana (sometimes two) against my rapier. Two swords is a real pain because it doubles the stress whenever he has the initiative. You not only have to worry about bringing your point back into presence but also about dodging the incoming blow. Needless to say, I got pretty nimble! I used the rapier's range and speed as well as some creative feints and judicial use of cuts whenever he was in my measure. Whenever he got into grappling range, he found himself at a severe disadvantage because of my wrestling background. There was, however, a "golden distance" that he could hang at and really mess me up if he managed to keep it. He was too close to fight with my arm extended but to far to grab and so I had to get even more creative. Usually, I half-sworded. I tried kicking once or twice but net some nasty dissuasive cuts.

My dad proved to be a surprisingly good sparring partner. He was instructor qualified in Army Combatives (Essentially BJJ) Ironically, he was the person who first taught me to thrust and feint instead of hack and chop. Still, once I got the Fabris manual and he found himself outclassed, he started favoring cuts and charges. Since he knew (and would verbally announce) my superiority of technique with the sword, he relied on putting as much pressure on me as possible. He also favored heavy cuts to the legs (inspired by Muay Thai leg kicks) since if my guard goes slack, my lead leg is pretty open. His number one goal was to knock my point out of presence and rush inside to grapple. Being that he was schooled in Gracie Jiu Jutsu and outweighed me by roughly eighty pounds, he won almost every time. The only real defense I had was to withdraw my sword, halfsword and thrust into his chest or flank under his arms. Another one that worked (though only partially) was when he locked swords with me and pushed me back, I could punch him in the face with my off hand. He favored low punches and stopped trying to punch after he disabled his hand on the hilt of my rapier one time.

Cross-discipline is all I've ever fought. I can honestly say, I'd be more comfortable fighting a longsword or backsword fencer than a rapierist!

[Jason Taylor]

All right, I don't favor thread necromancy, but since this thread has already been zombified, I'll add one more experience I had since the last post I made.

I did spar an opponent recently who had done kendo and had a bit of an attitude problem--I think he saw me as a larper who would bow to his superior skill from the exquisitely subtle and effective eastern arts. At any rate, he did a lot of charging. He hit me a lot. He went away thinking he'd owned me, I'm sure, but the problem was, every one of his attacks was suicidal. He chose to ignore solid hand cuts in spite of multiple warnings to call his hits. So he'd rush in with hands exposed, I'd smack his fingers (we were using paddeds since he wasn't one of ours) and then he'd hit me in the head. External appearance to him and unschooled onlookers: I lost. Had it been real: fingers laying all over the battlefield next to his "katana."

Frustrating as heck, let me tell you.

Jason

[Benjamin Smith]

The best way I've found to deal with an attitude problem is to get them to agree in advance what will count as a hit, and use tools that cause "some" pain. Nothing dangerous, but even with proper control a good plastic waster hurts. This way A) they agreed and you can bring that up, and B) there's nothing like someone going "ow! ow! ow! ow! ow!" to indisputably establish that you hit them.

The goal of that is to make it indisputable. If there is any room for dispute then you are just talking/fighting past each other, which is completely counterproductive. You need to establish victory conditions clearly in a confrontational representation.

Situations like this are rare though, and really aren't profitable to engage in unless you can confidently thrash them. Even then they usually just say something like: "You should meet master X who would thrash you as I cannot because he has trained longer."

People are really bad about admitting defeat in confrontations.

[Jason Taylor]

The best way I've found to deal with an attitude problem is to get them to agree in advance what will count as a hit, and use tools that cause "some" pain. Nothing dangerous, but even with proper control a good plastic waster hurts. This way A) they agreed and you can bring that up, and B) there's nothing like someone going "ow! ow! ow! ow! ow!" to indisputably establish that you hit them.

The goal of that is to make it indisputable. If there is any room for dispute then you are just talking/fighting past each other, which is completely counterproductive. You need to establish victory conditions clearly in a confrontational representation.

Situations like this are rare though, and really aren't profitable to engage in unless you can confidently thrash them. Even then they usually just say something like: "You should meet master X who would thrash you as I cannot because he has trained longer."

People are really bad about admitting defeat in confrontations.

He actually took the other tack, which was to pretend he thought I was the "master," to emphasize, by his condescending tone, that he had just owned the guy who called himself that. Which, of course, I NEVER said, and would NEVER EVER EVER say, and would expect other significantly more experienced non-masters to kick my butt for claiming if I'd ever said something preposterous like that. I even told the guy I'd only trained for two years....It was just one of those rare, irritating situations with someone who is trying to create a situation in which you fit a mold they've pre-prepared for you in their heads to make themselves feel bigger. Augh!

Sorry. Got a bit carried away there.

Anyway, at least he didn't come back. But as John has said many times, you have to get a pretty thick skin to be in this art and do these kinds of cross-discipline tests of your skill for very long.

PS--Just thinking--maybe we should start referring to our seniors by the non-master title, just to be clear. "Non-master John" or "Non-master Aaron," or whomever, just to get the point across. "I can only hope to attain the level of non-mastery."

[Dylan Asbury]

Hah...when I run into people that don't recognize valid hits, I change my game and (maybe this is "sportifying") and act a little more defensive, maybe put a "surprised" or "frustrated" look on to encourage them and then I make sure my disengage is quick so the stab to the chest is impossible for them to parry when they attack and usually do some kind of grapple to put them on thier rear end. I then smile, extend a hand, and graciously pick them up. If they're nice people, I just do all of the above without the grappling. I reserve humiliation for the rude ones.

[Sal Bertucci]

here's some suggestions. Firstly, if you're ever in a similar situation...Full power zornhaw to the head. There's no way he'll be able to stop you with his shinai, and any arm block would be obvious as well. Frankly, letting him use his shinai at all was your first mistake. A shinai is in no way shape or form a real weapon, or even a weapon trainer. I think you should have demanded his bokken vs. your wood/plastic waster. This will help in several ways. A.) The weapons are more accurate weight wise and also more similar making skill a more determining variable. B.) If he's not skilled enough to spar with wood then you don't need to waste your time. C.) If he's a coward and doesn't want to get hurt this gives him a chance to back out, once again not wasting your time. D.) Lastly, as mentioned above, people fight differently when there is actual pain involved. This leads to accuracy.

If you follow this list it would seem to cut out many people that you might spar with. It does. I believe that sparring, while serious, should be fun. I also don't believe in sparring people I don't know or aren't vouched for by friends of mine. I follow this advice to make sure I can have a fun experience without worrying about being injured by inept jerks.

That's my ten cents.

[Jason Taylor]

here's some suggestions. Firstly, if you're ever in a similar situation...Full power zornhaw to the head. There's no way he'll be able to stop you with his shinai, and any arm block would be obvious as well. Frankly, letting him use his shinai at all was your first mistake. A shinai is in no way shape or form a real weapon, or even a weapon trainer. I think you should have demanded his bokken vs. your wood/plastic waster. This will help in several ways. A.) The weapons are more accurate weight wise and also more similar making skill a more determining variable. B.) If he's not skilled enough to spar with wood then you don't need to waste your time. C.) If he's a coward and doesn't want to get hurt this gives him a chance to back out, once again not wasting your time. D.) Lastly, as mentioned above, people fight differently when there is actual pain involved. This leads to accuracy.

If you follow this list it would seem to cut out many people that you might spar with. It does. I believe that sparring, while serious, should be fun. I also don't believe in sparring people I don't know or aren't vouched for by friends of mine. I follow this advice to make sure I can have a fun experience without worrying about being injured by inept jerks.

That's my ten cents.

I didn't let him use his shinai--I gave him one of our paddeds, because that's my usual policy for raw beginners who want to spar. I'm confident I can prevent injury from a padded if I have head, hand, and groin protection, and if I'm wary--cause I can stop the bout if I sense he's nuts enough to hurt someone with a padded.

The main problem was that almost nobody can effectively stop a determined kamikaze suicide attack, at least, not without a vast disparity in skill. And if you choose to pretend that a solid snapping cut with the weak to the back of your hand or the top of your thumb would somehow not cripple your hand, it's really hard for your opponent to deal without getting into the "I hit you/no yuo didn't" argument that invariably ensues. So I just kept reminding him to call his hits, and he kept smugly thinking he was hitting me cleanly....I think Kendo ignores hand hits, IIRC. Anybody know?

[CalebChow]

I don't think kendo ignores hand hits--if I recall correctly the "kote" strike includes hand and forearms, if not the entire arm. "Men" to the head, "Do" to the chest, and "tsuki" to thrust in the neck.

Leg shots and thrusts anywhere else I think are invalid?

It may be that moderate hits to the hands/fingers are often ignored by refs/judges, and hence considered "invalid." Like in saber fencing I think there's a specific form of a strike that has to be executed in order for it to count as a point.

Again, a display on the dichotomy of sport and martial art.

[Chris Ouellet]

Kote hits are only valid in kendo when they hit the forarm protection. The hand pad (fingers) is considered invalid.
The reasons for the specific targets of kendo are completely lost to the mists of time. I've read many books and much literature on the web, if anyone has a clear reason for them, I'd personally much appreciate it.

Kendo rules are even more specific, really ingrained kendoka mentality will ignore direct hits to the head if it doesn't come with a stamp (fuki-omi-ashi), have follow through (zanshin) and even if the shinai doesn't follow a specific trajectory (a full horizontal cut to the head is: invalid). It's a game with very very rigid rules and the best players know how to follow them to a tee.

Now Jason, yes suicidal attacks are difficult to manage but to some degree you are at fault. Since it's your first time sparing kendoka I suggest you think back and analyze exactly what you did wrong to not convince your opponent of the effectiveness of your technique.

The first clear problem you had is explaining that you're going to spar by your rules - hands are valid targets. I always suggest to my opponents we start with their rules, then move towards more free form because it sets people more at ease that you're not trying to screw them over and reduces friction. Have them explain their system to you (fencer, kendoka, kali, whatever).

The second problem you had is from your description you didn't analyze the techniques being used. Kendo is very predictable and the suicidal charge while tough at first can be managed since you know it's coming.
My experience is you have to counter speed with speed and rushing attacks should be negated by fast reverse and side footwork. I don't know the specifics of your training but you must practice footwork intensively at high speeds, otherwise you will get overrun by someone who does, like say kendoka.

Don't give up on cross-discipline sparing because of one bad event, it can be very rewarding.

[Jason Taylor]

Kote hits are only valid in kendo when they hit the forarm protection. The hand pad (fingers) is considered invalid.
The reasons for the specific targets of kendo are completely lost to the mists of time. I've read many books and much literature on the web, if anyone has a clear reason for them, I'd personally much appreciate it.

Kendo rules are even more specific, really ingrained kendoka mentality will ignore direct hits to the head if it doesn't come with a stamp (fuki-omi-ashi), have follow through (zanshin) and even if the shinai doesn't follow a specific trajectory (a full horizontal cut to the head is: invalid). It's a game with very very rigid rules and the best players know how to follow them to a tee.

Now Jason, yes suicidal attacks are difficult to manage but to some degree you are at fault. Since it's your first time sparing kendoka I suggest you think back and analyze exactly what you did wrong to not convince your opponent of the effectiveness of your technique.

The first clear problem you had is explaining that you're going to spar by your rules - hands are valid targets. I always suggest to my opponents we start with their rules, then move towards more free form because it sets people more at ease that you're not trying to screw them over and reduces friction. Have them explain their system to you (fencer, kendoka, kali, whatever).

The second problem you had is from your description you didn't analyze the techniques being used. Kendo is very predictable and the suicidal charge while tough at first can be managed since you know it's coming.
My experience is you have to counter speed with speed and rushing attacks should be negated by fast reverse and side footwork. I don't know the specifics of your training but you must practice footwork intensively at high speeds, otherwise you will get overrun by someone who does, like say kendoka.

Don't give up on cross-discipline sparing because of one bad event, it can be very rewarding.

Actually, he's not the first. I've sparred kendo guys before, but when most of them picked up my weapons, they played by my rules--which I didn't mention in my earlier post, but he came to us wanting to spar our way after our study group meeting. So this isn't an issue of unfamiliarity. I'd also suspect that had you been there you would have recognized it, as we all did, as an issue of ego, at least in part. His bearing and tone gave it away--but I couldn't very well refuse to spar him when I was already sparring other newbie beginners the same day. As far as what I did wrong, I probably just didn't hit him hard enough--but I don't smash people's fingers on day one, because it hurts, and because other people watching think I'm a meanie.

As far as the suicidal charge thing, yeah, I know I could have learned to manage it, but one 15-20 minutes sparring session, I really didn't get much of the hang of it. Also, in my opinion, I was countering it, because I was destroying his hands at every pass--once with a short edge-long edge cut to the forearms/wrists, both within a second, which he ignored before hitting me in the head. I shouldn't really need to find a more difficult and risky defense because he chooses to ignore the ones I'm using. I'm pretty sure that I couldn't do the equivalent in a Kendo school, where they'd probably tell me to cut it out so I didn't make it harder for the other guy to train.

Jason

[Chris Ouellet]

That's unfortunate I understand better the situation. Ego should be left at the wayside whenever people spar.
Many people believe sparing is actual fighting, however sparing really is play. It can be very structured, very intense, with intent to display characteristics of real combat but it's not and never will be actual combat. An important test of skill, but not a true test.
Of course if you can't soundly beat someone with a reinforced foam sword or similar, you're probably not going to do much better with the real thing, but that's just my opinion.
Ego drops very quickly when life is on the line anyways so it's not representative to walk into a sparing match full of yourself.

That being said with my students I've always reinforced the idea that you should never deliver your head to your opponent - whether the underlying assumption is armored or unarmored fighting, regardless it's not good. You can stand there and argue if X attack to Y body part is truly debilitating with someone from a different tradition but it's always clear that head shots are decisive. I've never come across a fencer/kendoka/escrima/... that has disagreed after I've smacked them there.
So while landing a hand hit fractions of a second before a head hit lands on you *may* convince some people, a head hit is universally convincing. It perhaps alters your style temporarily but to get the point across there's nothing better.

I don't know the specifics of your style, but rising cuts with smooth transition to upper block work very well against kendoka. You hit their forearm and cover your head in one motion.

I should be sparing a fencer acquaintance of mine in about 2 weeks, we're going to take video of it and post it on youtube.