Wearing a rapier

[Anne Lyle]

Hi

I'm currently writing a novel set in 1590s London, and although I can find a good range of resources on historical fighting techniques and suchlike, what is harder to find is information about the practicalities of going around with a 36-40" rapier strapped to your hip!

I'm therefore hoping someone here can point me in the right direction. I need to know about the etiquette of sword-wearing, how (if?) you can sit down wearing one, and so on. About all I've come across so far are regulations on length, and the suggestion that persons entering London might have had their rapier measured and the point broken off if it was too long (or more likely, a bribe taken to look the other way!).

Thanks in anticipation!

[Webmaster]

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Interesting question, I'm not sure how much of that sort of etiquette made it into writing, although I'm sure it existed. However, 36"-40" is short for a rapier, many if not most were over 4 ft. long.

[Anne Lyle]

Sorry - my bad re the name!

Re the length, I was thinking of the Statutes of Apparel which states:

"no man shall, after ten days next following this proclamation, wear any sword, rapier, or any weapon in their stead passing the length of one yard and half a quarter of blade at the uttermost"

i.e. 1.125 yards or 40.5 inches. Obviously the hilt would add several inches to this, and many rapiers of the era must have had longer blades or the statute would have been pointless, but as you say, four feet or more would have been a typical length.

A considerable size to wear slung at waist height, methinks!

OK, so does anyone know how widely swords were worn in this era, and what sort would be popular outside court circles (dandies will wear the most ridiculous things, I know, but they are seldom typical) ?My protagonist is an impoverished gentleman who has fought on the Continent and currently makes his living as a sword-for-hire/private fencing-master/etc. Would he be more likely to wear a "small sword" (as advocated by George Silver) for everyday use, rather than a rapier?

(Please note that I am not writing fluffy romance - I'm a former RPGer with an interest in Elizabethan espionage!)

[s_taillebois]

Generally its as probable for day to day use, anyone who was on the economic margins would have simply worn a dagger. Or carried a staff.

If the protagonist was a returning soldier, likely the weapon would have been some form of broadsword. But something like that would have been worn only for the a la plasaince, at the school, or when traveling. Plus many of the fight schools had royal charters often within which was the requirement that they'd not be out in the community causing trouble, or having their students cause trouble.

Additionally is he'd been part of some difficult campaign, or had some very close escapes from death, or had committed atrocities its very possible he would have left his sword at an altar for either atonement or gratitude. That tradition survived well into the baroque era.

As far as espionage actually the weapon of choice was poisoning or the stylet.

And the etiquette of wearing these weapons varied considerably, the English being more tolerant than some continentals. But there were towns were they'd hang a wooden dagger or other weapon on the gate and anyone bearing a weapon larger than that was proscribed from coming into the town itself. English towns for example would sometimes have the town wards (or the townspeople themselves) beat up those who came in bearing staffs in what they considered a provocative manner. And no doubt those who unnecessarily acted up with a sword or rapier may have been dealt with in the same manner. The Hue and Cry tradition could easily escalate into having every armed male out to mend the ways of those who'd disrupted the common. That's one of the reasons that those who cried 'wolf' were often treated quite harshly and fined.

So the Errol Flynn stuff of waving the weapon around while at the bread sellers stall was right out, and people did not generally attend banquets with armor and weapons. That was incredibly offensive once the falcons were out, especially the Kestrals.

Additionally although by the Elizabethan era the tensions from the Rose wars had abated religious tensions were quite high (even amongst the protestants let alone the remaining Catholics), and the general culture took offense seriously-so activity intended or unintended to provoke offense could be very problematic. And the various confraternities did watch out for their own. In a somewhat later example the knights of Saint John chased Caravaggio all over Italy (he'd assaulted a SJ Knight) and even the Pope refused to interdict. Although the Pope knew Caravaggio was trying to get to Rome to ask for pardon.

And if your character is going to wander from town to town, his mere presence could have been enough to provoke trouble and more so if his weapons were not borne in a manner avoiding giving offense. The smaller communities were often very suspicious of outsiders, if for no other reason than Elizabeth 1st had set up quite a network of domestic spies and informers.

[Stacy Clifford]

If you're talking about the Elizabethan period, England was still bucking continental trends and favoring older style weapons, but the rapier and Italian style in general were catching on enough that Silver was complaining about it. What we know as the "small sword," basically a miniaturized rapier, wasn't invented yet, so I'm not sure what that reference by Silver means. A fencing master with a strong military background would probably favor cutting weapons with wider utility much as Silver did, though strong nationalism also played a role in Silver's choice. See the recent "Cut and Thrust" thread for some more comments you might find useful. Masters of Defence had their own guild at the time in England, so you'll want to look up info on that. Besides George Silver's work, English translations of Italian manuals by Vincentio Saviolo and Giacomo Di Grassi were also published and popular in the 1590s. Depending on the exact time period you're writing about, you'll have to tailor your character's influences carefully.

[Anne Lyle]

Thanks for the replies! Yes, I was aware of Saviolo, who had a school in London at the time I am writing about, and my hero owns a copy of Grassi's "Ragione..."

With regard to the small sword, I am going by summaries of Silver's writings, in which he advocates a shorter rapier than was normally worn. I understand he was rather dismissive of the fancy Continental style of fencing!

"That was incredibly offensive once the falcons were out, especially the Kestrals."

Sorry, taillebois, I don't quite understand - are we talking actual birds of prey here? I know medieval lords took their falcons everywhere - is that what you mean, or am I being dense?

From my research I've gathered that English society at this period was indeed violent - the apprentices of London went armed with something akin to a singlestick and were prone to riot at the slightest provocation, and a recent programme on BBC Radio Four talked about the rise in gun crime (including ride-by shootings!) owing to developments in handgun technology.

Interesting point about surrendering one's sword when returning from war - I wasn't aware of that, but I think it would be in character. It would explain why he doesn't own a heavy (by comparison) military sword.

I will however take care to tone down the swashbuckling aspect and save the rapier for when it is most appropriate

[s_taillebois]

The falcons, a convention which held as long as the aristocracy had the falcon infatuation was that when these birds were present it was understood that either a diplomatic truce was in effect, or a civil truce within families and etc. And it was considered very dishonorable to act inappropriately when this code was in use. Kestrels, Merlins, and such smaller falcons were a woman's bird and so to give offense when these were present could bring the court or family rage for dishonoring their women.

Plus the practical reason that these birds were expensive, and very flighty when under stress, so this code also had practical applications.

The aristocrats did sometimes carry them around, although not on the pitch itself. The reason they did is the concept that when the bird was out, one wasn't looking for a fight and it was dishonorable to attack someone who had one.

Although brigands, the poor and etc wouldn't have worried about it. And there were always aristocrats willing to bend the rules. Even at the risk of attainder and etc.

Yeah the medieval & Renaissance English were an incredibly violent society but they did have means to keep some of it from constantly disrupting life. And sometimes the disruptions of traditions seemed to them more upsetting than the actual killings.

"From my research I've gathered that English society at this period was indeed violent - the apprentices of London went armed with something akin to a singlestick and were prone to riot at the slightest provocation,'"

Yes that was one of the reasons that the Hue and Cry tradition eventually died out. It was considered an abrogation if it was raised and one wasn't out there with a staff, dagger, maul, sword or whatever. But these descended into riots easy enough.

Might also look up Long Meg, a legend probably based on several women who fought in the lower class versions of the masters fights. She was supposed to be around in the Tudor era. One of the things she allegedly did was to trick a visiting Italian into believing she was his paramour. Made up a fictitious offense, he goes off the defend her honor at the grounds. She in disguise trounces him and informs him he lacks the parts necessary to be her lover.

[Anne Lyle]

Interesting, I've not come across the business with falcons in any of my (extensive) reading on the medieval and renaissance periods. What are your sources?

[s_taillebois]

Interesting, I've not come across the business with falcons in any of my (extensive) reading on the medieval and renaissance periods. What are your sources?

I'll have to look them up, as the books I'd read on the matter were up in Canada. But could look up an analysis of the Bayeux tapestry some of the early scenes refer to that tradition.

[Anne Lyle]

Ah, well, Bayeux is half a millennium before the period I'm writing about - I'm not sure the practice was still extant at Elizabeth's court!

[s_taillebois]

http://books.google.com/books?id=kSOMTo ... &resnum=10

Might also look in Google Books on this one. About falconry and social meanings.

The dilemma is moving about on academic vagante employment I never stole enough of the interesting books that other institutions have...

Time context is a problem but social conventions do have a stunningly long life. Our tradition of giving wedding silver for example is part of a long thread which goes back to the medieval tontine knives. And interestingly enough with some of the northern Indians (Hunkpapa's and etc) some do give knives to each other as a form of bond-something they may have gotten as a side result of the Euro-American Victorian obsession with the Gothic.

So what point and where a tradition stops can be very diffuse.

Its also been a problem for those seriously studying WMA. Here in the US too many people want to just play with the weapons and dress in fur rather than worrying about how these were actually used, and when. Simply because looking up some of these things is actual work.

But without the net, ARMA and groups like it would be presented with an almost insurmountable research problem. Especially here in the US...

[Anne Lyle]

http://books.google.com/books?id=kSOMTo4ZoM8C&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=falcons+and+courtly+love&source=bl&ots=DR_Ifz7bWl&sig=1VOjDsQVsJ_DrXxgfKbN4vtEZxM&hl=en&ei=LnA9SpDGJYGmNZ3XpKkO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10

Might also look in Google Books on this one. About falconry and social meanings.

Thanks!

The dilemma is moving about on academic vagante employment I never stole enough of the interesting books that other institutions have...

My frustration is that the institution where I work has an Athena account - but it only covers the science journals we are subscribed to, not the historical ones I want to read for personal research.

Time context is a problem but social conventions do have a stunningly long life. Our tradition of giving wedding silver for example is part of a long thread which goes back to the medieval tontine knives. And interestingly enough with some of the northern Indians (Hunkpapa's and etc) some do give knives to each other as a form of bond-something they may have gotten as a side result of the Euro-American Victorian obsession with the Gothic.

So what point and where a tradition stops can be very diffuse.

True. Though I don't think I need to invoke falconry traditions in my current work - IIRC, it was treason to draw a weapon in the Queen's presence!

Its also been a problem for those seriously studying WMA. Here in the US too many people want to just play with the weapons and dress in fur rather than worrying about how these were actually used, and when. Simply because looking up some of these things is actual work.

But without the net, ARMA and groups like it would be presented with an almost insurmountable research problem. Especially here in the US...

I haven't had an opportunity to handle any original (or good replica) weapons, unfortunately, but since I am very small of build, I would no doubt find them too heavy, perhaps misleadingly so. I do have John Clements' book on renaissance swordsmanship, which has been very useful.

On the other hand, I do have a distinct advantage over you guys in the US. I'm only a 45 min train journey from London, and as a UK tax payer I can get a yearly pass to the Tower of London quite cheaply

[Jonathan Newhall]

I haven't had an opportunity to handle any original (or good replica) weapons, unfortunately, but since I am very small of build, I would no doubt find them too heavy, perhaps misleadingly so. I do have John Clements' book on renaissance swordsmanship, which has been very useful.

Hm, I would say that a lot of weapons were actually a LOT lighter than I had ever anticipated. Swinging them around with force, of course, takes some strength, but merely holding them shouldn't give you the impression that they're heavy at all. In fact, quite far from it - a two or three pound rapier should be very manageable by just about anyone on the planet.

[Anne Lyle]

Hm, I would say that a lot of weapons were actually a LOT lighter than I had ever anticipated. Swinging them around with force, of course, takes some strength, but merely holding them shouldn't give you the impression that they're heavy at all. In fact, quite far from it - a two or three pound rapier should be very manageable by just about anyone on the planet.

You haven't seen the weediness of my wrists! *lol*

Seriously though, I appreciate that they are light and well-balanced. Perhaps one day I will get an opportunity to try one out....

[s_taillebois]

"I haven't had an opportunity to handle any original (or good replica) weapons, unfortunately, but since I am very small of build, I would no doubt find them too heavy, perhaps misleadingly so. I do have John Clements' book on renaissance swordsmanship, which has been very useful. "

As M. Newhall noted these weapons (or a quality modern equivalent) are much lighter than some would expect. Victorian wall hangers and their modern equivalent were/are clunky bits of ironmongery because these didn't have to do much but rust. But a good sword has a surprising amount of sophistication in its design, and attendant light weight.

But the time to learn the art to use it, and the physicality of a martial activity would put some physical stress on those practicing these arts.
Could look up "Blood Red Roses" as it gives a pretty good medical evaluation of the men murdered at Towton, including the type of injuries (or changes) associated the long term use of swords, bills, bows and the like. (Incidentally at a burial in Jamestown Va, US, they knew they had a swordsman due to the bone changes on the forearm. Apparently the radial and ulna enlarge with long term training with swords and the like)

Modern use, aside from the vexation of occasionally taking a good whack with a stick, it does seem to trouble the wrists and shoulder joints. Along with the occasional sprained or broken finger.

Could be a new niche for those with medical degrees, specialized treatment for fools who get busted up as a result of training with obsolete weaponry...the kendo waiting room could be filled with copies of "The Tale of Genji" and Mushashi and the WMA waiting room could be filled with dusty copies of Chansons de Gestes and fight manuals.

Your proposed soldierly protagonist might spend a fair amount of time down at the local tavern drinking enough to cut the aches...even if he'd never had any important parts cut or sliced up...

Although as you noted, being in England you've got a substantial amount of research available in regards to WMA.