Striking Combinations in Ringen

[Joshua Cook]

Now before anyone yells at me, I realize that Ringen is a grappling-based style. Grappling, as shown by the article "Getting Punchy" on the ARMA's article page, was the obvious preference to striking of our Renaissance forbears.

That being said, this discussion I would like to focus on what striking does exist in Ringen.

I've seen punches and kicks and a variety of hand blows in the manuals, not to mention knee and elbow strikes. I've also seen shown the principle of combination striking, the Codex Wallerstein plate 84 for an example. But what has seemed absent from my research is how much in depth this concept of combination striking goes. As far as I can tell, the strikes are present in the Ringen system solely to soften an opponent for wrestling.

And there are other combination strikes that are implied in Ringeck.
He lists the five Murder-Strikes, but he also advises that on approaching an opponent to "hit him in the throat with the second hand". This would argue a simple 1-2 strike concept, followed immediately by wrestling.

There also seems to be a concept that would later be referred to as the Riposte. An upward parry, punch combination is shown in the ARMA's Ringen Vocabulary article. The Codex Wallerstein shows a parry, front kick combination. This leads me to speculate about what other combination strikes may exist in other manuals I do not have access to.
I'm curious as to what anyone else may have uncovered that I could add to my training.

To sate this curiosity, I am asking my fellow scholars to post any Ringen combination strikes they know of, so I may advance my training in our art.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

That's very good thinking on your part. I don't think they would omit strikings from the art either. Strikings are very useful and can be quite devastating if do it right. Even in the most brutal striking art, like Muay Thai, they do have a lot of wrestling, like breaking someone's back and arms in half. I guess a good MA make use of both. A lot of people don't realize that if you strike someone right, you can easily crush someone's face and kill him. It's been known to happened a lot. I'm sure there are good striking techniques in Ringeck because there are situation where strikings are very useful and effective IMO. I'm interested to see as well of what people know about this.

[Doug Marnick]

Even in the most brutal striking art, like Muay Thai, they do have a lot of wrestling, like breaking someone's back and arms in half. I guess a good MA make use of both. A lot of people don't realize that if you strike someone right, you can easily crush someone's face and kill him. It's been known to happened a lot.

Sripol,

With respect, I have to question your post.
1. The brutality of any martial art is based on opinion, not fact. My opinion is based on the effectiveness of the fighter, not the art itself.
2. I'm sure there are many ways around the world to break bones in both the back or limbs. I am skeptical of the phrase to "break them in half".
3. I do not believe it can ever be easy to crush someone's face or kill them with a single strike. Since you wrote that it's happened a lot, I would be interested in seeing this claim backed up by a source.
Thank you.

[Gene Tausk]

Even in the most brutal striking art, like Muay Thai, they do have a lot of wrestling, like breaking someone's back and arms in half. I guess a good MA make use of both. A lot of people don't realize that if you strike someone right, you can easily crush someone's face and kill him. It's been known to happened a lot.

Sripol,

With respect, I have to question your post.
1. The brutality of any martial art is based on opinion, not fact. My opinion is based on the effectiveness of the fighter, not the art itself.
2. I'm sure there are many ways around the world to break bones in both the back or limbs. I am skeptical of the phrase to "break them in half".
3. I do not believe it can ever be easy to crush someone's face or kill them with a single strike. Since you wrote that it's happened a lot, I would be interested in seeing this claim backed up by a source.
Thank you.

I echo Doug's comments. Further, since you say that "crushing someone's face or killing them with a single strike" happens "a lot," it should not be any problem for you to bring forth MULTIPLE sources.

I am waiting.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

This does happen a lot in fight actually. Even a lot of people who are not trained in any combat can cause the face to cave in if you punch someone full force in the face. Doctors often treat cases like this all the time where someone comes in badly beaten and had to do reconstructive surgery. It's well known. My neighbor who moved away was ambushed by a guy when he walked out of small store here, where we live. He punched him on the cheek, and he got hit with full force. He crushed his face, but he got reconstructive surgery and is OK now. Think of what people who are trained to punch can do to your face if they punch you. It can happened if you strike someone in the right place. I must admit! But it is serious getting your face crushed. I was exaggerating a bit that you can kill someone by crushing their face with single blow, but it can happened. If you strike them repeatedly in the same location, then yes. this quite devastating.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

Sripol,

With respect, I have to question your post.
1. The brutality of any martial art is based on opinion, not fact. My opinion is based on the effectiveness of the fighter, not the art itself.
2. I'm sure there are many ways around the world to break bones in both the back or limbs. I am skeptical of the phrase to "break them in half".
3. I do not believe it can ever be easy to crush someone's face or kill them with a single strike. Since you wrote that it's happened a lot, I would be interested in seeing this claim backed up by a source.
Thank you.

If you have a good leverage, yes, you can break someone's back easily. If you can get them with a rear naked choke after you throw them down on the ground so their face is facing the ground while sitting on their back, pull back with you arm as far as you can using their neck as leverage while they are in the choke hold; I think the legs are also in some kind of leg lock. At least that's how I think it's done.

[Doug Marnick]

This does happen a lot in fight actually. Even a lot of people who are not trained in any combat can cause the face to cave in if you punch someone full force in the face. Doctors often treat cases like this all the time where someone comes in badly beaten and had to do reconstructive surgery. It's well known. My neighbor who moved away was ambushed by a guy when he walked out of small store here, where we live. He punched him on the cheek, and he got hit with full force. He crushed his face, but he got reconstructive surgery and is OK now. Think of what people who are trained to punch can do to your face if they punch you. It can happened if you strike someone in the right place. I must admit! But it is serious getting your face crushed. I was exaggerating a bit that you can kill someone by crushing their face with single blow, but it can happened. If you strike them repeatedly in the same location, then yes. this quite devastating.

I still disagree. I would like to cite Frye v Takayama 2002.

In response to Josh's original post, I find the idea of combinations fascinating as it applies to constant movement, continuous pressure, and maintaining the Vor.

[Joshua Cook]

Thank you for steering back to the topic Doug.

For me, as a fighter, combinations have always been instinctive, and there are several simple combinations that I could think of that could be applied instinctively that may not be shown in source material. My favorite example is one that I've used in sparring. An inward parry, as shown in the Codex Wallerstein, flows perfectly with an edge hand strike shown in Passchen.

Another favorite is my interpretation of the Fifth Death Blow combination. A jab punch to the throat/face region, followed by a cross punch to the stomach. It may just be my boxing background that make combinations ingrained in my approach, but I really think that our Renaissance forbears would have used combination strikes simply because even a full power strike to a vital point is often just not enough to stun a determined adversary. And also, citing experience, it's much easier to wrestle against a stunned opponent than one actively fighting back.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

A good combination is really great. I can probably knock someone out with my left fist if I can do followed up and get a direct hit. Once you get the hang of it, it's really not that hard. Sometimes I punch so hard it hurts my knuckles.

[Joshua Cook]

I was perusing through the ARMA's article page and found the article on Stickfighting and Boxing in Renaissance Italy. I was fascinated, having a background in boxing as previously mentioned, to read about the pugni and their early victories against the schiavoni. Particularly about the similarity of the pugni's method of straight punches similar to foyning fencing of the later Renaissance. And since the pugni were required to wear gloves on both hands (eventually), one can assume that they used combinations of jabs and crosses to bloody their opponent's faces.

By the way, I thought I should list here the Ringen/Renaissance boxing based combinations I have uncovered. All these combination strikes are either shown in the manuals or implied by the article mentioned above.

1. Jab to the Face, Cross to the Face
2. Cross to the Face, Jab to the Face (I think this one is more likely since the pugni first only wore a glove on the right hand and later both hands)
3. Cross to the throat, Grab, Cross to the Solar Plexus (Ringeck)
4. Cross to the throat, Grab, Knee to the Groin (Ringeck)
5. Cross to the throat, Grab, Right Hammerfist to the Temple (Ringeck)
6. Cross to the throat, Double Hammerfists to the Neck (Ringeck)
7. Jab to the throat, Cross to the Stomach, Hip throw (Ringeck)
8. Ear Press, Cross to the body (My interpretation of Codex Wallerstein Plate 32)
9. Double Hammerfist to the Neck (this is a feint), Knee to the Groin (CW Plate 133)
10. Ear Press (this is a feint), Hooking Sweep to the Legs so he falls (CW Plate 139)
11. Jab to the throat, Slip, Cross to the Stomach or Single Leg Takedown (CW Plate 132)
12. Parry, Front Kick to the Stomach (CW Plate 134)
13. Parry/Grab attacking arm, Cross Punch (I've seen this in Talhoffer but can't remember where at the moment.)

If there's any more I'm missing, please let me know.

[nathan featherstone]

its interesting to thing about all the strikes present in ringen there are many many forms yet as you say are often a fore thought to a grapple yet it would seem when training equal thought should be given to the relevant strikes ringen for me is like hundreds of years of street fighting with the best moves left in, by this i mean there are many strikes we see in other arts that ringen throws and grapples would counter act what is left is hugely effective and in a self defense situation (which i feel is the best way to teach ringen as self defense) its good to have solid strikes available as if your opponent goes to grapple it can be very beneficial to strike them.

[PeteWalsh]

In bareknuckle pugilism, as practised predominantly in the UK and USA between 1700-1900, there appears to have been very little in the way of combination punching, certainly as it later developed under gloved boxing. The one-two seems to have been about the limit of it.

Similarly if you look at bareknuckle as still fought today by the traveller community (there are numerous examples on Youtube), combinations are a relative rarity even though many of these guys have trained as boxers.

My own view, which may be completely wrong, is that this has something to do with both the risk of damage to the hands, which is perhaps greater when throwing combinations (opponent ducks his head, your knuckles collide with it, etc), and also the risk of taking a blow in return, which is greater when you have set set yourself to throw a combo.

So could the same have applied in Ringen? I don't see why not, with the caveat that of course there was a greater variety of blows on offer such as the hammerfist which would not have presenterd such a risk of injury to hands.

I feel combinations may have been very much an exception rather than a rule.

[nathan featherstone]

well from what i have seen in ringen many of the strikes thrown are not punches so to hear about these strike combination's is very interesting yet i agree many martial arts which rely on bare knuckle techniques dont have many punches to the head or many closed fist moves.
also the introduction of gloves to boxing greatly increased deaths in the sport with something like an average of 10 deaths a year nowadays where as boxing pre gloves in the 17 to late1800s had on record a tiny number of deaths in its recorded history.
also many punches are not very effective against an armoured foe so much of the ringen i see seems to favour other styles of strikes.
that being said a well placed punch can end a fight in an instant and other strikes still run the risk of injury all be it slightly reduced.

[Tyrone Artur Budzin]

Have to agree with Pete's view, maybe the risk of injuring the hands was one of the reasons why striking was not highly emphasized in Ringen. Maybe to preserve the hands for utilizing weaponry is my hunch?

[Sal Bertucci]

I'm wading into unfamiliar waters here, so bear with me.

I remember being told by a friend in the medical field that doctors used to recommend for boxers to not wear gloves. Specifically for the purpose the the opponent's hand would break before there was any serious brain damage.

I know it's a bit of hearsay, but it sheds some light on the subject as well.