Best Sidesword Sharp for Bolognese School?

[James Brazas]

My group is looking at starting sidesword soon. However, none of us have studied sidesword yet and we don't really know much about it. Mostly we've been doing longsword, messer, dagger, ringen, and polearms.

Would anyone more experienced in sidesword usage be able to help us find the best sidesword sharp for the Bolognese school?

Ideally, we would want a durable blade that is quick and nimble while still having good power in both the thrust and cut (emphasis on thrust).

[LafayetteCCurtis]

I'm surprised that you haven't included the A&A Milanese Rapier, since it's what I think of as the quintessential sword for the Bolognese style. In its absence, however, I've cast my vote for the Serenissima.

[James Brazas]

Hm. I guess I should have included the Milanese Rapier as among the options. I don't think I can go edit that now, though.

So what is it about the Milanese Rapier that makes you rate it higher than the Serenissima or the Albion Machiavelli?

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Subjectively speaking, I feel that the Milanese is more "in fashion" for Marozzo's era than the older styles represented by the Serenissima and the Machiavelli, even though I'm pretty sure the older types remained in use as well. It's also more thrust-oriented than either of its competitors in this particular three-way race.

[James Brazas]

OK. So it's in part a fashion issue and in part that the Milanese is more thrusting oriented.

I looked it up on myarmoury.com. It looks like a really good sword, though the review said it was slightly heavy and slightly slow in the cut due to its length. (37" blade) The big side rings make it look like it would be uncomfortable to have in a scabbard by your side. Of course, it's not like any of us will be walking about town with these things.

[James Brazas]

By the way, what are your thoughts on the Cavalier Rapier?

What those of us in our group are really interested in would be a sidesword that is as good as possible for battlefield use. The Cavalier Rapier reminds me of the Type XV arming swords, so I'm guessing it would be great against armored opponents.

To me, the Machiavelli, Cavalier, and Serenissima seem to be the most battlefield-oriented of the list.

Am I right?

[LafayetteCCurtis]

The big side rings make it look like it would be uncomfortable to have in a scabbard by your side. Of course, it's not like any of us will be walking about town with these things.

Well, by the 1530s or so wearing the sword at a near-horizontal angle was becoming a much more common practice than the earlier medieval habit of wearing the one-handed sword more vertically (or with only a slight angle off the vertical). In this position I find that side-rings can often help fix the sword in place against the hips and reduce the bouncing/swinging motion experienced while walking with it.

By the way, what are your thoughts on the Cavalier Rapier?

What those of us in our group are really interested in would be a sidesword that is as good as possible for battlefield use. The Cavalier Rapier reminds me of the Type XV arming swords, so I'm guessing it would be great against armored opponents.

I haven't seen or handled it in person. It appears to be an excellent sword, but perhaps the design is a bit late for the classic Marozzo/Manciolino era, and possibly a bit too battlefield-oriented? The Town Guard sword suffers from exactly the same problem--it's an awesome military sword in its own right but (again, subjectively speaking) it's not the kind of sword that springs to my mind when somebody mentions the word "Bolognese."

To me, the Machiavelli, Cavalier, and Serenissima seem to be the most battlefield-oriented of the list.

Am I right?

This is obviously going to be subjective (as if I haven't mentioned that often enough). As I see it, the Cavalier is the most battlefield-oriented of the three. The Serenissima and the Machiavelli would also make splendid weapons on the battlefield, especially for light infantry armed with the sword and target, but at the same time they're also more refined-looking swords that would appear to be more at home in a civilian duel or brawl than the Cavalier. In other words, bringing a Cavalier or a Town Guard sword feels like bringing a Winchester lever-action to a revolver shootout; very effective, but it just feels unfair somehow.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

The big side rings make it look like it would be uncomfortable to have in a scabbard by your side. Of course, it's not like any of us will be walking about town with these things.

Well, by the 1530s or so wearing the sword at a near-horizontal angle was becoming a much more common practice than the earlier medieval habit of wearing the one-handed sword more vertically (or with only a slight angle off the vertical). In this position I find that side-rings can often help fix the sword in place against the hips and reduce the bouncing/swinging motion experienced while walking with it.

By the way, what are your thoughts on the Cavalier Rapier?

What those of us in our group are really interested in would be a sidesword that is as good as possible for battlefield use. The Cavalier Rapier reminds me of the Type XV arming swords, so I'm guessing it would be great against armored opponents.

I haven't seen or handled it in person. It appears to be an excellent sword, but perhaps the design is a bit late for the classic Marozzo/Manciolino era, and possibly a bit too battlefield-oriented? The Town Guard sword suffers from exactly the same problem--it's an awesome military sword in its own right but (again, subjectively speaking) it's not the kind of sword that springs to my mind when somebody mentions the word "Bolognese."

To me, the Machiavelli, Cavalier, and Serenissima seem to be the most battlefield-oriented of the list.

Am I right?

This is obviously going to be subjective (as if I haven't mentioned that often enough). As I see it, the Cavalier is the most battlefield-oriented of the three. The Serenissima and the Machiavelli would also make splendid weapons on the battlefield, especially for light infantry armed with the sword and target, but at the same time they're also more refined-looking swords that would appear to be more at home in a civilian duel or brawl than the Cavalier. In other words, bringing a Cavalier or a Town Guard sword to a duel in the back-alleys feels like bringing a Winchester lever-action to a revolver shootout; very effective, but it just feels unfair somehow.

[James Brazas]

Thank you for all your help. It exlains a lot. I have mostly done longsword and other medieval material 'til now, so a lot of the later Renaissance/Early Modern material is still very new to me.

It sounds like the Cavalier, Machiavelli, and Serenissima would be the best options according to my criteria.

I'm perfectly comfortable bringing "a Winchester lever-action to a revolver shootout", so the Cavalier might be my choice out of them.

I prefer the hilt construction of the Machiavelli, Serenissima, Milanese, and the other earlier swords, but I like my swords to be battlefield-oriented.

I hear that now that Albion is nearing completion of the Maestro line Marozzo practice cut-and-thrust that they are considering developing Next Gen cut-and-thrust swords with the Bolognese school in mind. It sounds great to me, though I have no idea when their next gen model would come out - possibly not for years. I'm also not sure what sort of blade they would put on it. If it's similar to a Type XV, I might just wait for Albion's model. They told me the hilt would likely be similar to the Marozzo. Of course, all the talk of a Next Gen Albion Bolognese style sword is still just talk at this point.

[James Brazas]

News from Albion:

The Marozzo (sidesword blunt) is suppoed to be available for purchase by1st quarter 2013 or maybe even by the end of the year.

An Albion Next Gen sharp sidesword with a hilt like the Marozzo is in planning and they hope to have one ready for purchase sometime in 2013.

They said the Next Gen sidesword will be a true cut-and-thrust. The blade design is still in the works, but it should be able to perform both quite well.

So I'll probably just buy the Albions when they come out.

Albion also said that they should have the Maestro line and Next Gen rapier out fairly soon as well.