The schiller strike

[ChrisThies]

I wholeheartedly concur with all of the praise for this book - which is best expressed/summed up above on this thread by the four positive bullet statements made by J. Fellrath. It is an excellent source for the individual training without a sparring partner(s) such as myself. But I have a question about the application/usefulness of the "Schiller" strike (p. 91-97) when engaged in sparring because I believe that the inherent/unavoidable 'telegraphing' of the move would be detrimental. Perhaps someone who has tried this with a partner can set me straight. This is the only technique I can find (ignoring half-swording) that is executed with both palms facing the same direction. To arrive at this ultimate hand position on the grip, one must turn/spin the sword 180 degrees with the right hand (bringing it to oversupination [edit] ) and then reestablish a firm left hand grasp (with palm facing same direction as the oversupinated [edit] right hand) of grip (&/or pommel) prior to the contact/bind of one's false edge against the opponent's incoming blade. Wouldn't this twist of the blade be a blatant 'telegraph' to the opponent of the technique/strike one is using/about to use? And if he knows - by what you're doing - the ultimate position you're sure to end up in, then he's sure to change his attack/go to a secondary attack while you're still in the nach/after responding to his initial attack. I know Master R. elaborates that the schiller "...breaks the strike or thrust of the clumsy or unskilled fencer..."(p. 92), but what if the one only thing that your sub-par opponent happens to know is what the unique 'telegraph' is for the schiller technique? Thanks for any insights.
Chris


*Edited by me to change the title...Shane

[Brian Hunt]

I have a slight disagreement with how this book shows the Schiller. I feel that basicly they have it right, but I include a placing or movement of the thumb on the right hand over the guard of the sword so as the thumb is pointing down towards the point of the blade. This is done during the strike, at the same moment as you start your strike (the strike starts off looking like a zornhau) you point your thumb over the cross lengthwise down the blade, then in the middle of the strike (somewhere in the first quarter to the first third of your arc I would guess) you turn your sword in a clockwise direction making the thumb of the right hand turn from the left side of the sword to the right side of the sword so that the false/short edge comes to the front and basicly becomes the true/long edge. The placement of the thumb in this manner, IMHO, keeps the wrist straight so it doesn't end up with the bent type wrist shown in the illustrations. During this movement remember that the grip of the right hand must remain supple (As John Clements has emphasised time and again, keep a supple grip), not glued in place on the hilt of your sword.

This is of course just a matter of a slightly different interpretation of how to throw this shot. This is what I find works best for me, what was written in the book is the interpretation they found to be best. I do not however think that either of these two ways of doing a schiller will telegraph itself since I believe that they both start out looking like a zornhau and turn into the schiller in the middle of the strike. If you turn your sword before your sword starts to move towards your opponent, then of course you will telegraph your intentions. I have found this strike to be very effective during sparring when thrown at the left forearm of your opponent while traversing to the right, particularly as a countercut against a zornhau, or a thrust from pflug, and of course as a mastercut against someone who hangs out too long in the guard of pflug. I hope I have explained this well enough to be understood, like most discussions about this art it is easier just to show it than to desribe it. I can't take any credit for this one, I need to thank Stewart Feil for showing this to me. I also use a similar thumb movement when throwing a zwerchaw that has the thumb on the bottom side of the sword when attacking either the left or the right side of my opponent.

Hope this helps, and is not confusing. If I have given any incorrect information, I stand assured I will be corrected by someone else with better knowledge than myself. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt.

[Randall Pleasant]

Personally, I view the placement of one’s thumb as more of a personal preference rather than a difference in interpretation. For example, some people, for whatever reason, do not place their thumb on the under side of the sword when performing a Zwerchaw but it is still the same technique. If we have to be really specific about where we place our thumb in order to make something work then we should consider our interpretations as suspect. Of course, we should always consider <u>all</u> of our interpretations suspect.

Like many other scholars, I believe that David’s Lindholm’s book is the best translations and interpretation of Ringeck currently available. However, I too have some issues with David Lindholm’s interpretation of the Schiller when countering an Oberhau. First, I think the hands are depicted much too low, requiring the right wrist to be bent all the way forward. A common feature of Liechtenauer’s teachings on the longsword is keeping your hilt high during the performance of a technique in order to protect your upper openings. As illustrated in his book (page 92), Lindholm’s interpretation of the Schiller leaves the upper openings completely unprotected. On the other hand, Plate 73 of Goliath, shown below, shows the man on the left performing the Schiller with his hilt much higher, thus providing some protection of his upper openings. Second, David Lindholm (as well as Christian Tobler in his book) shows the Schiller being thrown from the left side. Ringeck states that you “strike from your right side”, there is nothing about moving to your left side and then striking. Plate 73 of Goliath clearly shows the man on the left throwing the Schiller from his right shoulder. At the end of the cut you should be in a right Ochs position, not a left Ochs.

<img src='http://www.schielhau.org/images/73.jpg' width=400 height=450 >

We should really consider moving this discussion on the Schiller technique to another thread.

[Shane Smith]

"We should really consider moving this discussion on the Schiller technique to another thread. "...

I agree Ran <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Joachim Nilsson]

That really looks more like a long edge krumphau than a schiller to me.

Now let us assume -for arguments sake- (I could very well be wrong in this assumption), that the written number (20) on that picture is related to the recto and verso "page numbering" of Goliath -then that picture corresponds very nicely to:

"You shall drive this play, against most parts of the sword, And drive this thus, When you come to him in the pre-fencing, then lay your sword to your right side, in the barrier guard, and stand with the left foot forward, or hold it on the right shoulder, if he then Strikes high to the opening, then strike strongly with the long edge, to cross arms, against his strike, and as soon as the swords glide together, then wind the short edge just then against your right side, on his sword, and stab him in the face, Or if you would..." (Taken from http://www.schielhau.org/goliath.p21-40.html -Section regarding: "A good Piece of text regarding the Krumphau" )

Note: The translation of No. 20 recto is actually false, or wrong, in the end where it says "...then wind the short edge just then against your right side". It should say left since the original German text says "...so wind indes gegenn deiner lincken seiten, die kurtz / schneid..."

"Linken" means "left", not "right".

Look closely on the picture; the arms of the left swordsman are crossed. And he strikes with the long egde if I'm not mistaken. That would not be the case if he were striking a shielhau -then is arms would be uncrossed and he would hit with the short edge. Although I'm quite confused as to why he [the left swordsman] haven't moved his left leg when he executed the cut. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" /> Even though the author doesn't actually state that any leg should be moved.

But I've digressed far enough... But in the other aspects I can agree more with you Randall. Perhaps the hilt need to be somewhat higher than shown in Lindholm's book when executing the Schiller against an Oberhau. But that has to be thouroghly tested during training. But Lindholm's interpretation of the Schielhau is very similar to what we have come up with in our study group when we interpreted the original German text.

And where do you see Lindholm showing the Schielhau thrown from the left?? As well as moving to the left side and striking?? All the pictures in my book shows it thrown from the right side.

Best regards,

(The man who considers his interpretation suspect <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" /> )

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Randall,

I would have to concur that personal preference might be a better term for what I was trying to explain, but I have found this thumb thing to make the techniques quicker and more accurate with my edge placement. I also completly agree that Lindholms book is fantastic. I refer to it constantly, moreso than any other book in my collection. I was not trying to be critical, but explain what, IMHO, I feel helps this technique work even better. I definatly feel that it is better to keep a supple grip with the right hand irreguardless of the thumb, rather than bending your wrist as shown in Linholm's Book. As far as at what height you throw this shot, I have thrown it both high and low. So I have no true problem with either interpretation, although system wise I see what you are saying about keeping the hilt high. I also prefer to throw it from the right shoulder, although I have experimented and can do it from the left shoulder, or even from a high vom tang over the head, it feels better from the right shoulder. And as you say, the text says it should come from there.

just my 2 cents worth.

Brian Hunt.

[Shane Smith]

My experience somewhat mirrors Brians.I find that using the thumb helps me both align the blade and intiate the rotation of the hilt in the hand during the strike.I start the cut not unlike a zornhau and then use the thumb to push on the cross to turn the grip in the hand before locking my thumb into the fuller.It's hard to explain but effortless in action. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[ChrisThies]

Brian (&amp; Shane)
Prior to your posts I was a 'fingering' (or in this case a 'thumbing') skeptic, but having just tried adding your thumb tweak upon this technique I am starting to believe there can be some limited applications of fingering where the benefit of the increased blade control (&amp;/or speed) is worth the risk of exposing a digit. When I apply your thumb tweak to the schiller (initiating the sword twist with the wrists but finishing/following through with the thumb as I interpreted by your description) I end up with the palm of the right hand facing up (supinated instead of oversupinated), the palm of the left hand facing to the right, and the right thumb behind my blade in relation to the opponent's incoming blade. Feels very good at the end (the right wrist is in a stronger position), but definately something one has to practice to execute with proper timing/control in order to acquire a consistent/proper edge alignment upon completion of strike/contact with opponent's weapon. I say this because when compared to the schiller blade rotation in the text [loose left hand grip while a constant right hand grip rotates the blade the whole 180 degrees, then both hands control grip again], the thumb tweak blade rotation [loose left hand grip, initial constant right hand grip during first (approximate 90 degrees) portion of blade rotation, followed by both left and right hand loose grips for the final (approximate 90 degrees of rotation) whilst the thumb guides/controls the blade rotation until both hands brake/control for final position] has a fraction of time [last 90 degrees of rotation] wherein the blade is turning without any significant control by hands. So I need more practice (&amp; some sparring) to see if I will make the thumb tweak a standard application in this technique. My original question of telegraphing appears to be a non-issue (dismissed by you as negligable and subsequently ignored by the other respondents). I look forward to putting that to the test whenever I get the opportunity to schiller against something other than my shadow. Thanks.
Chris

[Brian Hunt]

Chris,

Your welcome, I am glad my post has helped you. Good luck, and have fun with your training. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brian Hunt.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Stewart,

Thanks for posting that picture, I forgot about the fact that it shows the thumb as I was describing it. A picture is worth a thousand words, especially when it comes from the masters. I am going to have to experiment with that high hanger version, primarily I have played with the one to the lower hanger. I can't wait to try that one out against Scott, or another partner.

thanks.

Brian Hunt.

[Randall Pleasant]

Joachim

Thanks for joining this discussion. Your knowledge, experience, and insight are highly valued and welcomed. Good honest, open, and professional debate among scholars about techniques, along with the realistic (as far as possible) application of techniques in practice, are the only way we can hope to more fully recreate this wonderful art and science. I am looking forward to one day training with the members of ARMA Sweden.

Now let us assume -for arguments sake- (I could very well be wrong in this assumption), that the written number (20) on that picture is related to the recto and verso "page numbering" of Goliath…

At this point I cannot find any support in the rest of Goliath for your assumption. For example, Plate 114 has the number 34 in the middle of the image and is clearly associated with Verso 53, which describes a Durchlauffen technique. Likewise Plate 115 has the number 35 in the middle of the image and is clearly associated with Verso 54, which describes another Durchlauffen technique. As you can see, the numbers on the images of these plates do <u>not</u> match the number of the verso that describes the technique shown in the images.

Perhaps the hilt need to be somewhat higher than shown in Lindholm's book when executing the Schiller against an Oberhau. But that has to be thouroghly tested during training. But Lindholm's interpretation of the Schielhau is very similar to what we have come up with in our study group when we interpreted the original German text.

The low hilt is the primary issue I have with Lindholm’s interpretation of the Schiller in countering an Oberhau. This was also an issue I had when shown this same interpretations by Hans Heim and Alex Kiermayer of <a href='http://www.schwertkampf-ochs.de/' >Ochs</a> at the ARMA International Event. In practice today Ernie Perze and I worked with the technique and we both felt that we needed to keep our hilts hight during the performance of the technique to ensure some protection of our upper openings.


Steward

Thanks for posting the image from Meyer. The image clearly shows the high hilt position that I think is needed to protect the upper openings. The interpretation I was shown by Jake Norwood back in May matches this image and was very effective.

[Richard Strey]

Stewart Feil wrote:

Glancing Strike
The Glancing Strike is also a High strike, but has been so named in that one closes with a small glancing blow, which is done thus: put yourself in the Guard of the Roof or Wrath (as shown in the third chapter) with your left foot forward, from which you will be striking, and while striking be sure to wind your short edge against his strike, and hit with inverting hands at the same time as closing with him, step fully with your Right Foot toward his left side, and so quickly take his head, thus have you done it rightly, and will stand as shown by the figures fighting on the left side of illustration G

I feel that -having studied Meyer practically for almost two years and being native German- there are a few things I'd like to offer my opinions on.

My interpretation:

Glancing Strike
The Glancing Strike is also a High strike, but has been so named in that it is struck with a small glancing blow, which is done thus: put yourself in the Guard of the Roof or Wrath (as shown in the third chapter) with your left foot forward, when being struck, strike as well, and while striking be sure to wind your short edge against his strike, and strike with inverting hands at the same time (as he does), step fully with your Right Foot toward his left side, and quickly take the head with you (as in: take your head to the right side as well to get it out of harm's way), thus have you done it rightly, and will stand as shown by the figures fighting on the left side of illustration G.

Comments:
I kept the translation of "Schiele" with "glancing blow". I fits my own ideas pretty well, which is not to say that it is neccessarily correct. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
"...from which you will be striking..." should read "when being struck" or more litterally "are you being struck at". This is a clear translational mistake.
"and hit with inverting hands at the same time as closing with him" becomes "and strike with inverting hands at the same time (as he does)", since "Schlag... zuglich mit ihm hinein" means "hit at the same time as he does". "hinein" - "into it" refers to the striking, no relocation of the body due to stepping.
"and so quickly take his head" becoming "and quickly take the head with you". A litteral translation would be "and swiftly take the head with". Note that there is no indication whose head is talked about, but the verb "mitnehmen" means taking something with you, not away or into possession. Furthermore, during practice we noticed that Meyer does use this exact phrase when indicating that you should get your head well out of the danger zone.
In this case, your opponent strikes, you strike with him. He might, however, wind at your sword and thrust from there. That's why, thinking one step further than the words presented here, it does make sense not to leave your head where it is.

I hope that is food for thought. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> Please let me know what you think.

[Scott Anderson]

Great, another thing to keep an eye out for. Ah well, this is how we learn ^_^

SPA

[Joachim Nilsson]

At this point I cannot find any support in the rest of Goliath for your assumption. For example, Plate 114 has the number 34 in the middle of the image and is clearly associated with Verso 53, which describes a Durchlauffen technique. Likewise Plate 115 has the number 35 in the middle of the image and is clearly associated with Verso 54, which describes another Durchlauffen technique. As you can see, the numbers on the images of these plates do not match the number of the verso that describes the technique shown in the images.

Hmm... Yes. Seems my assumption was a bit off then. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> But the text I found still corresponds quite nicely to the picture you featured in a previous post, no?

The low hilt is the primary issue I have with Lindholm’s interpretation of the Schiller in countering an Oberhau. This was also an issue I had when shown this same interpretations by Hans Heim and Alex Kiermayer of Ochs at the ARMA International Event. In practice today Ernie Perze and I worked with the technique and we both felt that we needed to keep our hilts hight during the performance of the technique to ensure some protection of our upper openings.

I agree. But only when it comes to countering an Oberhau with the Schielhau. In other circumstances, such as breaking the guard Pflug, one can achieve quite nice results with a "low hilted Schiller". That's at least what we've experienced during our training sessions. But as I previously stated: this has to be further and more thouroghly examined and tested.

Although I must admit that it sometimes feels a bit un-nessecary to utilize a Schielhau as a defence against an Oberhau when one could more efficiently use a Zwerchhau instead. But I have to surrender somewhat <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" /> to the fact that Ringneck knew what he was talking about and probably had a very good reason for including that "move". Most likely to cover all the possible circumstances and possible actions and events that might occur in combat.

And last, but not least:

Thanks for joining this discussion. Your knowledge, experience, and insight are highly valued and welcomed. Good honest, open, and professional debate among scholars about techniques, along with the realistic (as far as possible) application of techniques in practice, are the only way we can hope to more fully recreate this wonderful art and science. I am looking forward to one day training with the members of ARMA Sweden.

Thank you for welcoming me into this discussion. I too believe that good, honest debates and discussions are the key to reviwing the lost arts of medieval (and renaissance) swordsmanship and combat. I also look forward to sharing and recieving insights gained from training and study, as well as crossing blades(!), with ARMA members from the US some day. <img src="http://www.thearma.org/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regards,