History Channel

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History Channel

Postby Guest » Sat Jan 03, 2004 3:30 pm

Tonight on the history channel they are having a series on medivel life. Tonight is going to be monks and knights. Will be intresting to see how well it is done.

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Matt Shields
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Re: History Channel

Postby Matt Shields » Sat Jan 03, 2004 10:06 pm

Did I see spray painted whool passed off as chainmail? And they used purely tournement helmets and lances. The whole thing seemed pretty cheesy. And wasn't the whole point of Knights to protect Lords and Peasants? And wasn't chivalry supposed to do the same? They definately took the opposition. Well,the episode on Monks wasn't as bad.

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Re: History Channel

Postby Shane Smith » Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:21 am

The episode on monks was a bit "rape and pillage" for my tastes but at least there were a few images of the monks wearing swords <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />
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Re: History Channel

Postby Guest » Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:44 pm

I only caught part of it, but they did seem to have an axe to grind with anyone in authority at that time. While I realize life wasn't all peaches and roses at that time, I sensed a theme of how the pesant class was oppressed by the church and capitalist war mongers. Hummm... you don't think it had a bit of a socilists bend do you? Hollywierd strikes again.

Actually I was hoping of a more day to day look at how the people would work, eat cook, date, and recrational activites at that time.

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Re: History Channel

Postby Casper Bradak » Sun Jan 04, 2004 7:21 pm

Hehe I thought the cartoons were great. But yeah, the episode on knights spent very little time on knights, and the episode on monks spent most of the time talking about their financial transactions.
If you go by what they were saying, monks weren't pious and chivalry was never payed attention to by those bound by it. Bah!
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Re: History Channel

Postby Jay Vail » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:23 am

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Hehe I thought the cartoons were great. But yeah, the episode on knights spent very little time on knights, and the episode on monks spent most of the time talking about their financial transactions.
If you go by what they were saying, monks weren't pious and chivalry was never payed attention to by those bound by it. Bah!



One of the great problems with monastic life was the tendency of monasteries to become rich. This wealth had a well known corrupting effect on monks that is well documented in the historical record.

As for chivalry, it was a code of ethics observed in full only by a few and used by the elite to maintain social control, and our rosy view of it owes much to Sir Walter Scott rather than a hard-headed look at the facts.

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Re: History Channel

Postby Guest » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:58 pm

I don't doubt that the information wasn't true, however I was intrested in how the monks lived day to day, not hashing how they stole from the people. Also not all monks were that corrupt. Just because it is written in a book does not make the words a fact. There is a lot of history of the catholic church collecting money and being very corrupt, that does not mean all priests are crooks. I was wondering, how did the monks get food? Did they grow and raise all of it, or go to the market? How did you become a monk? What did they do for fun if anything? That is the stuff I was wondering about.

As for the knight part, I didn't see enough of that to make a comment, but I recorded it to watch when I get time.

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Re: History Channel

Postby JeanryChandler » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:06 pm

sensed a theme of how the pesant class was oppressed by the church and capitalist war mongers. Hummm... you don't think it had a bit of a socilists bend do you? Hollywierd strikes again.


I think this is an odd statement, with all due respect. Hollywood usually depicts medieval knights as benign "chivalric" protectors of the weak, which is contrary to history. As has already been pointed out here, few knights and fewer lords followed what has become thought of as the chivalric ideal of paternally benign behavior. To the extent that "chivalry" was followed in practice, it basically amounted to one knight allowing another he had captured to try to ransom himself if possible. No such courtesy was extended to peasants of any kind or foreign "heathens", who were usually slaughtered.

I think it is important in understanding the historical record, to admit that knights, men at arms, and really most people in those days, were no better or worse than people are today, (that is to say, not very benign) and in the conditions of near constant warfare, religious hatred, and by the 14th century plague epidemics, it tended to bring out the worst in people.

Same goes for the church. With regard to their relation to the peasantry, for example, both church and state retained the right to 'first flower', to deflower the wife of any commoner living on their land on their wedding day (as was depicted in the otherwise not too realistic film Braveheart).

I challenge anyone to read an account of the 1st Crusade, the Albegensian Crusade, The Wat Tyler rebellion, the Jacquerie, the Lithuanian Crusades, the 4th Crusade, or the 30 years war, just to name a few, and point out any widespread examples of "chivalric" behavior, or indeed evidence that lords, knights and men at arms in those days were much more than pedigreed warlords, or even gang bangers. Slaughtering men, women and children, putting entire cities to the sword, etc., hardly counts as chivalry to me.

The extent that chivalry did exist made it stand out. That doens't mean it wasn't strived for by some, and can't act as an example of a "noble" goal to admire, but the idea should be put in an historical context, it's beyond politics, it's just history, and we should try to understand it as well as we can without trying to taylor it to suit any artifical vision, rosy or jaundiced...

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Re: History Channel

Postby Casper Bradak » Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:38 pm

I think your opinion is a bit artificial. It seems there's a bandwagon of "chivalry was effectively absent, knights and nobles were rapist peasant haters" nowdays. It's most often the exceptions to the rule that go down in history. I'm sure most knights did't in practice go around saving widows and orphans, but most of them did display their chivalric virtues in prowess, loyalty, and largesse as their means allowed. Killing the heathen was a part of chivalry, as un-PC as it may be now. Seeking and making war was part of chivalry. Displaying their virtues in tournament was part of chivalry. Naturally their courtesies were mainly applied to their peers, no one wants to extend the courtesies they follow to those not bound by them, particularly in combat. (ask any infantryman if he likes being bound by the laws of war when fighting 3rd world terrorists)
If you were raised and trained on such stories, the very station you have and all the ceremony and oaths you took to gain it, must instill something in your mind. They were only human, so the result must be somewhere in between.
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Re: History Channel

Postby Guest » Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:43 pm

I wasn't very clear on my statement, sorry. Basically it seems that hollywood sells it's political agenda where it can. I am not saying people were better or worse, but the show was advertised as how these people really lived not the evils done by groups in power. I felt in this program they were dwelling on the evils done, not the day to day living. I am not saying skim over it or don't talk about it, but to tell me something besides the jerry springer side of things. Also the media tends to judge history by todays standards. That is wrong to do. Diffrent culture and time. As for the knights segment I mentioned I did not see it so could not comment. The monk segment is what I am going on. I agree the cartoones were entertaining.

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Re: History Channel

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:34 am

I think your opinion is a bit artificial. It seems there's a bandwagon of "chivalry was effectively absent, knights and nobles were rapist peasant haters" nowdays. It's most often the exceptions to the rule that go down in history.


Well, I don't know what history you have read, but I grew up believing in the tales of chivalry, damsels in distress, and king arthur and all that stuff. All of which, incidentally, was portrayed by hollywood in virtuall every single film I'd ever seen on the period, with the bad knights inevitably portrayed as exceptions to the rule.

When I got older and began to read first interpreted history, and then increasingly primary sources, I realised that that was a fantasy. The reality was viciousness, cruelty, the cynical use and abuse of naked force. Humanity can still be found in there, but nobility in the modern transmutation of the term (in the sense of being better behaved) seems very, very rare in any historical accounts I have read. Maybe you could point out some historical soruces (and I mean, history, not literature like the Chansons of Roland or propaganda like the King Arthur tales) which tell a different story.

Personally, while you might say people now days judge medieval knights by 21st century values, I think there is actually a disturbing trend among a lot of people who are into emulating historical combat of glorifying the people from those archaic times and white-washing their behavior. I recently read a discussion on a Roman history forum where some re-enactors said they wouldn't want to watch a realistic movie about the Roman because it would be "too negative". Negative or positive, history is history. Roman Legionaires, like Medieval knights, were tough, they were brave, but they weren't nice.

I'm sure most knights did't in practice go around saving widows and orphans, but most of them did display their chivalric virtues in prowess, loyalty, and largesse as their means allowed.


I'll grant you this, they obviously did have sometimes rather amazing prowess, and the one virtue you do see plenty of is a kind of extreme, sometimes quixotic fanatical bravery, which can be quite impressive, or ridiculous, depending on the circumstances. As for loyalty? Among knights and lords of the middle ages? Neither blood ties nor friendship seemed to matter much in the shifting political alliances of those times. Todays friends were sticking knifes in each others backs tomorrow...

Killing the heathen was a part of chivalry, as un-PC as it may be now.


Well this is a good example. Compare the "chivlary" of some of the Crusader knights to that of say, Saladin. Killing, raping, and torturing "heathen" women and children isn't exactly chivalric. Killing off half the population of Southern France, just because the Pope decides that they are suddenly "heathens", isn't chivalric. Wiping out a whole city of Albi because a small percentage of the population are suspected of being heretics isn't chivlaric. (this was where the cynical doctrine of "Kill them All, let God sort them out" was invented)

And neither is fleeing from battle the second the tide changes which knights were notorious for, and which is why they were increasingly made to fight on foot in some battles of the later middle ages (as at Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt) and how they ultimately evolved into an officer corps.

Naturally their courtesies were mainly applied to their peers, no one wants to extend the courtesies they follow to those not bound by them, particularly in combat.


Ironically, the peasants often did "extend the courtesy" of ransoming noble prisoners, because they could get money from them. This was one of many typical examples where the myth of chivalry (which was largely made up by itinerant minstrels, btw.) overlayed a reality based on money. Many Welch archers became rich by ransoming French Knights after Agincourt, for example.

(ask any infantryman if he likes being bound by the laws of war when fighting 3rd world terrorists)


Well, I was in an artillery unit myself, but I think most soliders with any concept of combat would prefer to fight in a front where the Geneva convention is being observed by both sides, rather than one where it isn't.

Against Germany in WW II, U.S. and English troops who were captured (and it can happen, no matter how brave or chivalric you are, you can be captured) had a chance of being decently treated. Russian Conscripts fighting in Chechnya, where both sides are "unrestricted by mamby pamby regulations!" and regularly commit atrocities, they can only expect to be killedm, and hope for a quick death if they are lucky .

They were only human, so the result must be somewhere in between.


The historical record, often in the direct voice of the participants in history, seems to indicate that times were pretty bleak. Of course humanity is varied, but knights were not paragons of mercy, justice, and kindness, any more than the church was in those days.

In general, it's one of the things I've always preferred about military history to more general approaches, because they miltitary accounts, being only interested in the details of the battles, are much less likely to whitewash the reality of what happened, good or bad, for ideological or sentimental reasons.

JR
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Re: History Channel

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Jan 06, 2004 12:43 am

I felt in this program they were dwelling on the evils done, not the day to day living. I am not saying skim over it or don't talk about it, but to tell me something besides the jerry springer side of things. Also the media tends to judge history by todays standards.


Yeah, I agree with this pretty much. I mean, dont' get me wrong, I admire knights of those days, as much as also admire the peasant Halberd- infantry of Switzerland or the Longbow archers of Wales. They were all tough hombres back then, with cojones the size of cantelopes. Of that, there is no doubt. And reading a book about the Crusades recently, it occurred to me how quickly these people died. A short time to plot, to struggle, to fight, and scheme, and then they got plague, or were killed in battle, fell off a horse, or fell out a window. When you are talking about the high middle ages, Humans were like mayflies in those days. And I think that perhaps more than anything, contributed to the desperation which often led to such ruthless behavior.


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Re: History Channel

Postby Scott Anderson » Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:01 pm

The only question i have about this whole thing is this:
Are there any truly pure historical accounts out there? I think not, as even today with all the talk about being impartial in reporting and recording what's going on there is no such thing. I'm fairly certain the truth lies in a very wide and ambiguous middle ground between the two extremes. The only way to have a truely impartial recording would be to have something like a video camera suddenly spring into existance in a random location without anyone putting it there and no one knowing it's there. Of course even then it's only impartial until someone watches it, because even with that sort of thing being wholly unedited each persons personality and view on the world will impart a certain impression of events and no two people will ever see it the same way.

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Re: History Channel

Postby Shane Smith » Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:12 pm

Lets keep things on topic folks. Swordsmanship is swordsmanship and politics is politics and while both are indeed worthy of discussion, this isn't the place for political debate. A discussion of politics in-period however, is appropriate as it pertains to the fighting men and women of the time .Keep it relevant.Thanks. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
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Re: History Channel

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:26 pm

I don't see this as political at all.

Yes, I've heard this sort of existential argument about the nature of History, and though it is compelling to a point, ultimately I think it's very weak. Yes, there is always some doubt as to the specific events which may or may not have taken place 500 or 1,000 years ago, but taken to an extreme, you could argue that I don't know for sure that I'm sitting in this chair typing, I could catually be strapped into some virtual reality machine, or hallucinating in a mental hospital (probably more likely).

Point is at some point you have to weigh the evidence and make your decision about what seems to be true based on the preponderance. Do I know that there is oxygen in the air I breathe? I can't see it... but based on science I have learned and the best way that I have been able to test it (trying to breath underwater say...) it seems to be the case. Either I accept it and move on or I can be paralyzed and try to figure out the world through pure induction, or through spiritual communication with the gods.

Similarly, do I know that knights viciously massacred women and children in the first crusade? Well, given the fact that the knights themselves wrote accounts in which they bragged about it and / or described it in detail, it's hard to assume otherwise. Did they betray each other, did they massacre the weak, pillage the poor? Very few if any of them in those days ever denied it, at least in writing, as it wasn't even considered particularly wrong.

And no, I don't agree that these things always balance out in the middle. Where is the "other side" in the Albegensian Crusade? Or the burning of cities in the 30 years war? etc. etc.

Does it relate to fighting? Absolutely. The fact that knights fled the battlefield leaving less mobile infantry behind is a very important tactical factor of the failure of Chivalry to widely influence knightly behavior. It had to be planned for by astute commanders, which it was.

I thought it was actually a big part of what groups like ARMA were about, trying to as accurately determine what the truth of history is. If you don't have any idea how knights behaved ethically, how can you begin to claim to understand the specific minutae of how they fought?

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