Hanging Guard vs Ochs...the nuance?

[Karen Rose]

I've read several articles and have seen a couple of statements concerning the misunderstanding of these two similar stances. I can see clearly from the pics that John C has put together that the blade in the Ochs isn't 'hanging' at all. In the videos I do see the hanging guard in use.

I don't yet compltely understand the fine line.

Thanks for any help here. As always, thanks for helping out a newcomer.

Karen

[Randall Pleasant]

Karen

Ochs is an actual guard. From Ochs you can cut, thrust, and defend. The hanging is not a guard, it is a technique for warding off a cut. As your adversary comes to fight you might await them in Ochs but you would never await them in a hanging. If I am in Ochs and I lower my point I am still not in hanging, only a poor Ochs.

There is a Hanging Point guard in Meyer's work but I'm not up on this. Hopefully, Jake Norwood, John Clements, or one of the othe scholars will drop in to correct anything I got wrong.

[Karen Rose]

Thanks Randall. Some of the different manuscripts do tend to show Ochs in a different light. Thanks for clearing this up for me.

[GaryGrzybek]

Hi Karen,

As Randal mentioned, hanging guard (Hengen) is more of a technique than a waiting position.

Picture this: From left Ochs you can defend an attack to your right side by extending your arms some and dropping the point. Keep the blade diagonal across your body so it closes the line of attack but keep the point more foward and to the right side. Raise the hilt high or else your still in danger of being hit on the hands or head. The other importaint thing to remember is that you must turn the blade so the flat is offered and that your right palm is facing up. This way is stronger. This position provides a cover and if needed you can raise or lower it depending on the attack. If your opponent feints and cuts low you can simply drop the point right to the ground to protect the legs. Of course it better to void when possible.

If your still having trouble picturing this position then try this. Hold your sword in right tail guard (Nebenhut for the germans) keeping the true edge foward. Cut upward diagonal from below and stop about midpoint as if you've hit something. This should place you fairly close in hengen.

This can be done from both sides of course.

Hope this made sense.

[John_Clements]

By hanging here we mean the "hanging point" position, not the earlier "hengen" of Liechtenuaer, which are the Ochs and Pflug when placed against the opponents blade.

JC

[GaryGrzybek]

Oh yes, thanks for the further clarification.

[Jake_Norwood]

Meyer's Hangetort is a guard, but that's a pretty loose term in Meyer. It's not a waiting position, but it is a position that you will move to in response to an attack or as a transitory position. I am strongly of the opinion that Meyer's 8 derived guards (one of which is Hengetort, or Hengen) are just that--positions derived from the basic four of Ochs, Pflug, Olber, and Tag.

In "pure" Ochs the point is at your opponent's face. In Hangetort, the point slopes toward the lower openings and somewhat across the body.

Just for fun, here's my take on Meyer's derived stances:

Ochs
-Hangetort
-Einhorn
-Schluessel

Pflug
-Langort
-Eisenpfort (which Meyer sort-of omits)

Olber
-Schranckhut (which he replaces Eisenpfort with)
-Nebenhut
-Wechsel

Tag
-Zornhut

I think that when Liechtenauer said that there were only four guards, he saw them much broader than Meyer and others later classified them, and that for Liechtenauer all high guards pointing forward were Ochs, pointing back-Tag. Middle forward guards were all pflug, and all low guards were Alber. Meyer, who was a great technical writer, broke it up into more teachable chunks.

Jake

[Tim Merritt]

Kinda' related: we have been looking at your Intro to Meyer and are having some trouble figuring out some of the strikes (even with Meyer's illustrations). Any plans in the future for some pictures to help out?

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Guys,

To say that the hanging guard is not a guard is just plain wrong. Variations of the hanging guard, some of which threaten with the point rather like ochs are found in at least 10 English manuals I can think of just off the top of my head.

There is no difference between a hanging guard and the ochs position in many cases and quite a bit in others. To generalise here is to ignore the facts.

The ochs is what would be called a "Hanging Guard in Seconde" or "The Pendant" (Wyld 1711) in English systems of fence and is characterised by the fact that it closes your high outside line and threatens with the point. The one handed hanger in seconde threatens the low line with the point whilst a two handed ochs of course generally threatens the high line.

There is another type of hanging guard called the "Hanging Guard in Prime" which is called "True Guardant Ward" by Silver. This guard closes the inside line and is held with the forearm horizontal, the palm facing forwards and the sword pointing back towards the left knee with your hilt just above your left ear or perhaps just in front. This ward is not a good position from which to thrust but is much better for a cut. Basically, to cut from the pendant you have to pass through the prime hanger and to thrust from the prime you have to pass through the pendant.

I can't place it right now but I have read one source that suggests the "St. George Guard" (Shortened to "George" by Wyld 1711) is a type of hanging ward too. The sword is held above and in front of the head on the right with the sword held horizontally covering the entire high line.

There is yet another type of hanging guard found in some English systems called the "Low inside Guard". This involves lifting the hand up past carte until the palm faces your right shoulder and is kinda in line with your left shoulder, lifting the hand up so the hilt and forte protect your head and letting the point slope downwards at about 30 degrees from the line of your hips.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Casper Bradak]

I doubt anyone will disagree with you but they're talking about longsword.

[Karen Rose]

[color="blue"] [/color]
Gary,
Very good explanation for me. I can picture it exactly. Actually I've moved through this position without knowing what to call it. I'm finding that some of the moves seem quite intuitive.

[If your still having trouble picturing this position then try this. Hold your sword in right tail guard (Nebenhut for the germans) keeping the true edge foward. Cut upward diagonal from below and stop about midpoint as if you've hit something. This should place you fairly close in hengen.]

Thanks!

Karen

[Jake_Norwood]

Yes. I plan pictures and much, much more. But it will be a while. What exactly are you struggling with? Open a thread about it (so that we don't hijack this one).

Jake

[John_Clements]

As has been noted out before, there does not seem to be any hanging point guard described in German texts before the 1500s, although as a defensive action recieving a blow on the flat it can clearly be seen in many illustrations (such as Leckuechner's Messer). The hanging point is described in P. H. Mair's compendium c.1540 though. However, as I pointed out before, the term "pendant" (as in something that "hangs", related to the Old French, pendre, "to hang" and en pendant, "while hanging") does indeed appear in the English 15th century text MS 3542, by J. Ledall. So, may be it was commonly used but never codefied until later in some schools.

JC

[Stuart McDermid]

Absolutely John, spot on.

The "Pendant" is an important guard in what little we have of the English Bastard sword system as being at wide distance two handed often means you are in close distance one handed. This is especially so if you strike one handed with the left hand to maximise reach. Lying in an open fight against the same is dangerous to both parties here at bastard sword hence the importance of guards like the pendant that cross the direct line of attack.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Jake_Norwood]

As has been noted out before, there does not seem to be any hanging point guard described in German texts before the 1500s, although as a defensive action recieving a blow on the flat it can clearly be seen in many illustrations (such as Leckuechner's Messer).

Really? Talhoffer shows it in 1467, doesn't he? I could be mistaken.

I suppose that the real issue here is what do we consider a hangen, and what do we consider a guard?

Jake