Why no GFS for Rapier?

[Allen Johnson]

I know that when starting out in the ARMA system the focus is mainly on the longsword. In the info about the qualifications for GFS it states that it is to be about the longsword reguardless of future weapons of study (rapier included). I was just wondering what the reasoning for this is? I have no problems whatso ever with it but was just curious. My biggest area of passion is the weapons of the 17th and 18th centuries- so naturally I prefer to study those- but I love my longsword too <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Casper Bradak]

I seem to recall talk a while back of a more extensive rapier curriculum. Maybe those of us who study it could help develop one?
Anyway, I'm just guessing here, but I'd say it's because it's such a narrow and limited aspect, being a specialized, civilian, non-foundational weapon with less source material. Not that it's an unimportant weapon, personally I think it's one of those outstanding uniquely innovative weapons of our past culture, and one of the deadliest in its own context to boot.

[John_Clements]

Good question, the answer is a variety of things. A GFS rating for rapier (i.e, evaluation of core physical skill demonstration and term comprehension) has been available, but no members have had the opportunity to obtain it yet. The substantial increased in longsword and side sword material in recent years has absorbed a lot of interest among enthusiasts and without question dominated our curricula. The rapier has not yet seen the same kind of renaissance that we have had for historical source materials on other weapons. Most members who study rapier are limited in being able to find training partners or attend events. ARMA has held about three rapier seminars in the last 4 years I believe, though. Another problem is that we have been very disappointed in the quality of both replica rapiers and rapier training substitutes (i.e., flexi rapiers, which we no longer advocate). Plus, we have had difficulties in securing good wooden rapier foyles ---but we expect this will finally be changing next year. Additionally, as Director I have not made rapier fencing a priority the past three years among either my Houston class or my travel teaching schedule, although this too will be changing next year. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

JC

[Allen Johnson]

Sounds good! Well if you want a crash dummy to try some of the suff out on I'd love to give it a go. I know that Mark Bertrand (i think it was him) did a paper on finding decent rapier replicas to train with--has there been any better blades found since that was done? I'm still not sure I see the value of the wooden foyles- I having trouble envisioning it as a better training tool than a semi decent rapier replica. I guess it would be trading an overly whippy blade on the replica for an overly stiff blade on a foyle. Granted this is probably just ignorace on my part, but it does sit odd with me. I just barely started to introduce the basics of rapier to a few of the people in the Provo study group and there seems to be at least a little bit of an interest there. So if you want, perhaps you can post or send what things you'd like for a rapier GFS and I'll see what I can do with it and perhaps try and work through some stuff with others who are interested. Also I'd appreciate any updated info on the best rapier blades to work with. I have a custom EB Erickson Basket S-Hilt being made now- but when thats done I want to get a new rapier. I'm thinking something in the area of a 2 -port cross style. I really like some of the styles over at Darkwood. But again, it does depend on the blade...

[JeffGentry]

Hey all
I found out about ARMA from the history channel Axe, Sword's and Knive's, I have only seen a short vid from the international event with John and and some one else with rapier's and the stuff John did with it on the history channel was amazing i would like to learn rapier it seem's to be more to my liking than foil, epee', or sabre, <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" /> i like the old way of fighting i guess, do what you nee to to win, i want to get the longsword down first though, hopefuly we can get John out here next year to do a rapier class.

Jeff

[Eric Gregory]

Getting the rapier end of things going most certainly appeals to me. I enjoy longsword, but have been doing rapier for quite a few years and would like to see more done with it...

Eric Gregory

[Allen Johnson]

Good to see there are at least 5 of us! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> In addition to the true rapier stuff, I'd love to spend some time with some of the "tweener" weapons. Stuff more from Marozzo (waits patiently for a translation) and Di Grassi as well as some of the later basket hilt and spadroon work. There were tons of variant weapons during this time where swords were starting to be phased out but still in use both in duelling and as backup weapons on the battlefield.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Allen

There are so many diffrent weapon's out there like you said "tweener's" that are fairly unique and probably not a whole lot written on them, for the simple fact they were comparitively short lived(as opposed to some of the other weapon's). Am interested in the cut and thrust sword have not done the research to find out what all is out there as far as text goes. Before i move on to many more i want to get some wrestling down first, i realy liked the fact in the de Jarnac duel that Jarnac wanted two dagger's each because he didn't want to wrestle because Châtaigneraye," had in fact won several previous duels precisely by rushing his opponents and wrestling them to the ground where he killed them with his dagger", so i do want to become a decent wrestler too.

Jeff

[Brian Hunt]

I also really enjoy Rapier. I am currently working with Capo Ferro and Alferi. I have worked up a couple of rapier simulators that are not very expensive to build, 10-20 bucks. I have an article mostly written on how to build them, but they are not an ARMA approved training tool. However, they are much stiffer than any practice weapon I have seen or used on the market, but they still have some flex to simulate the flex you will get in a steel weapon. I am currently looking to borrow a digital camera from someone in my familiy, mine is currently out of service, so I can add pictures to the how to for those interested.

I am excited about seeing an ARMA rapier program.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[John_Clements]

In addition to the use of wooden foyles for two-person drills, it is highly recommended to also get a steel rapier for individual drills and exercises. But, so many of these are not historically accurate being just too flimsy and made with a flat oval or diamond cross-section instead of a thicker hexagonal one. If you can manage to obtain a long and relatively stiff blade however, without any weighty rubber tip and only slightly rebated or not all, it can be a good solo practice weapon. It certainly permits experience in using a historical style hilt as well as allowing practice of test thrusts on target materials you can puncture.

JC

[Brian Hunt]

Hi John,

is there any replica rapier that you would reccomend as a good, properly made rapier "sharp" for solo exercises against targets? I have yet to hold one that I considered to be worth messing with let alone purchasing. I have even been desperate enought to be thinking about buying the tuck from MRL (because it has a triangular blade) and rebuilding it with a proper swept hilt as a rapier.

Thoughts?

thanks

Brian Hunt
GFS

[John_Clements]

I wish I could, Brian. But I have not handled anything in the past 12 months to know if newer ones are now better from any maker. So many I have from the past 6 years are just too whippy----being made as flexi sparing blades even when sold pointed, it seems. And others I have tried or own that were sold as accurate replicas are on the short and heavy side too, it seems. Perhaps soon someone will offer a long, narror and stiff rapier replica----foiled or sharp.

JC

[JeffGentry]

John
i realy have no idea of what an actual historical rapier weighted or how it was ballanced, all i know is that the one or two "replica's" i've handled seemed way to heavy in the blade and didn't beg me to stab something and i went yea it look's nice and put it down and moved on.

So i know less about rapier's than longsword and i don't know anything about longsword, i am learning though, i have thought about trying to make a wooden practice rapier like i said though i know nothing about the weight or balance so it would be wrong and why bother if i don't know the goal.

I would like to try to get you to Ohio next year for a little rapier class though depend's on what the rest of the group here want's so we'll see.

Jeff

[Brian Hunt]

Hi All,

I finally found time to finish that how to article on building a fiberglass rapier simulator. For those of you interested in a copy, please send me a private message with your email address, and I will forward a copy to you. The first draft has images in it that I got from other websites and I don't want to use them in an article on the web. I won't be posting one on the web until I have time to photograph the entire process.

Thanks

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Brian Hunt]

Hi all,

for those interested, I have pictures of two completed simulators, in a couple I have the pommels either partway or fully unscrewed so people can see what they are, at http://bhunt2.photosite.com/FiberglassRapier/

laters.

Brian Hunt.
GFS