So-Called Harmonic Balance

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Andrzej Rosa
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby Andrzej Rosa » Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:00 pm

I really did not want to insult anyone. Appologies to Mr. Pearce if he felt insulted.

English is my second language, so some intricacies are simply beyond my abbility to judge. I was not trying to be rude. Just trying to draw attention to avesome piece of scientific work directly related to sword-making, which explains why replicas do not handle (as a rule) as well as antique specimen.

Best regards. And I'm serious about it. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Brian Hunt
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby Brian Hunt » Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:07 pm

Hi Micheal,

thanks for your time. I appreciate any knowledge I gain from a practicing sword smith. I am going to start making some more of my own blades in the near future, and it is interesting to know how other approach it. Any further questions I have, I will refer to your email.

once again thanks.

Brian Hunt
GFS

(amature sword and armour smith)
Tuus matar hamsterius est, et tuus pater buca sabucorum fundor!

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http://www.emerytelcom.net/users/blhunt/sales.htm

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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:05 pm

Michael Pearce:

I was not insulted, and I hope your were not <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

The only handiwork I claim is that of what rehilting/regripping I have needed to do to make wieldy otherwise fine swords made not by me but by unnamed maker(s).

Any anger was directed at a general frustration with bad gripwork that seems to be all too common with some makers. And I have let those guys know.

So hey, not miffed at you or anything. I guess I did not realise my reply would be found so harsh. I just wanted to express disagreement not contempt.

Actually, your defense of *harmonic balance* made more sense than any other I have read. Thank you for expressing your ideas, even if we do not agree.

Good luck,

Jeffrey Hull
JLH

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John_Clements
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby John_Clements » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:41 pm

When I spoke to swordsmith Peter Johnson some years ago re the “harmonic balance” claims of American swordmakers, he expressed to me some dismay and grief that it was being misrepresented by certain fabricators to convey his own original theory of the elements of nodal relationships related to blade divisions associated with the functions of cutting and guarding. Further, after seeing it so misapplied he regrettably wished he had never first used the phrase.

Swordsmith Paul Champaign has communicated to me similar sentiments as to how the concept has been misappropriated by some as a pseudo-scientific marketing ploy to make claims about their products.

Perhaps over eager sword consumers on the Net also share blame.

Gotta run,

JC
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Robert Rolph
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby Robert Rolph » Thu Oct 06, 2005 11:38 pm

I'm just a novice sword and knife collector...so I could be wrong...but from physics classes I learned from high school and seeing how other machine tools work on documentaries...I would think that hardness of the steel would determine how well they cut. It's simple really. You can't cut something harder than the steel the sword is made out of. That is why temper steel is use to make swords in Europe. And just not any carbon steel...it has to have the right amount of carbon in it...too much and it'll break...too little and it won't cut well. The Japanese has taken this one step further by folding the metal 1,000 times to crisscross it...making tougher...inorder for them to able to make steel with higher carbon content. In addition, they insert softer steel in the middle and then fold the outer layer over. The softer steel will absorb the shock from the blows. This why the road construction tools have diamonds on the tips...so they go through the hard pavement better since diamond is harder than the road. I hope I right! If not...my apology!
"Borned in Bangkok, Thailand!"

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SzabolcsWaldmann
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby SzabolcsWaldmann » Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:06 am

Hi,

I just want to make this clear, not only japaneese did that folding, but europeans as well. Now I'm not some grungy wannabe swordspecialist, but this much I've learned from different sources, that folding in japan is not some magic stuff which was thoght out to create some überstark weapon of war, but simply because japan had one of the worst quality of iron and carbon available and that it was a must to fold it. That does not mean, that Europe and the Balkans, not to mention India and China, did not have quite a dozen different methods of weapon smithing, from laminated or folded metal to damascene. The Japaneese sword being in any form superior to any other sword in the world, is just part of the Martial Arts Mythology Collecton, available at you local McDojó. This japaneese swordmaking thechnique is horribly abbreviated.

The second myth, that the soft metal in a laminated sword is meant to absorb while the hard metal is meant to be hard and cut has also been many times proven absolutelly wrong. Check this out: http://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/def_en/kap_5/advanced/t5_1_1.html
Carbon transferes from the harder to the softer metal in the creating process, making quite a homogeneous quality of metal, while looking of course extremelly good. No real swordsmith would want to create a blade (which is meant to take heavy punishment and has lotsa jobs to do) which has, in any sense, materials with different caracteristics (just imagine, what happenes, if the enemy hits the blade in the wrong place? What if the folding was not mm exact and some layers are smaller, wider, flatter or whatever than the same ones on the other side of the blade?)
Fact is, many swordsmiths from the middle ages would have fallen unconcious if they saw how homogeneous the carbon steel is, that anybody can buy today at the local metallshop; and that you are able tu buy extremelly good carbon steel instead of low-carbon iron, with which you have to work yet for another week before you can even begin thinking about a sword.

Yet above all this, there are only very-very few swordsmiths today who actually can produce anything near as good as a true medieval blade.

Byez,

Szabolcs
Order of the Sword Hungary

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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:56 am

There is a book called *The Celtic Sword* by Radomir Pleiner &amp; BG Scott, which speaks from an archaeological viewpoint to the layered billeting of iron and even the first pattern-welding of steel in swords made by Celtic smiths of BC &amp; AD in Europe.
JLH



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Mike Chidester
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby Mike Chidester » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:50 am

When I spoke to swordsmith Peter Johnson some years ago re the “harmonic balance” claims of American swordmakers, he expressed to me some dismay and grief that it was being misrepresented by certain fabricators to convey his own original theory of the elements of nodal relationships related to blade divisions associated with the functions of cutting and guarding. Further, after seeing it so misapplied he regrettably wished he had never first used the phrase.
Is there anywhere where one can read his original explanation? Sounds interesting.
Michael Chidester
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"I have met a hundred men who would call themselves Masters, and taking all of their skill together they have not the makings of three good Scholars, let alone one Master."

Kevin R. Cashen
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby Kevin R. Cashen » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:43 pm

In e-mail John has asked for my thoughts on this subject and he wanted to share them here suggesting that I could be referred to as an anonymous source, but that strongly goes against my principle of not saying anything that cannot be said in front of all concerned. I have always owned up to anything I write and that is the main reason I insist on using my full name, as I would sign it, as my I.D. on any forum. I hope I can provide some input for my friend John while not being too much at odds with my friend Tinker (as I still hope to have that cigar and drink with him one of these years in Atlanta).

I hold a somewhat more reserved position on this topic, and must admit to not being highly knowledgeable as to its subtleties; it is a field that I have not found the need to do much research or testing in so it has remained low on my radar screen. I think it is common sense to recognize that any object oscillates or “vibrates” in waves with parts that must rest in the middle of the amplitudes, heck even a Louisville slugger has a sweet spot, but what does it mean? It means that due to cross sections and centers of mass, certain areas of any object swung in your hand will be optimum for striking. While some have put a lot of effort into developing a science around it, I have always found it easier just to pick the thing up and feel where it wants to strike. Unfortunately this creates a situation where only the more dubious aspects tend to stick in the forefront of my mind.

Some folks have focused their selling point on the “Harmonic Balance” thing enough that they need to totally embrace it. This is not a criticism it is just realistic, my selling point is the metallurgical aspects and optimizing heat treatment, so it wouldn’t make any sense for me to suddenly go neo-tribal and say that all those “ites” are gibberish and salt baths are a gimmick, and that I am now triple quenching my blades in lard, while facing magnetic north. As Tinker has also expressed, to me the words “Harmonic Balance” are theatrical enough in themselves that I have a hard time saying them, but it is a good attention grabbing marketing term. I have seen much worse and potentially harmful angles used in our business.

It is taking things to the level of a new field of science that I feel is excessive. My thoughts, that I have shared with Tinker, are that a well proportioned blade will zig and zag where it should, one doesn’t need a slide rule to work it out (we both agreed that neither of us are good enough with math to make swords if that was necessary <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

I have seen some outrageous claims made in the field as well, and this has roused the skeptic in me. When I see claims like alloys or hard solders used on the tang may effect the “harmonics”, or that secret 3rd or even 4th nodes have been discovered, I am intrigued (or amused) as this thing starts to slant to the metaphysical. I have had devout followers of this topic criticize my swords with ricasso because the harmonics have been thrown off, it is all I can do not to just ask if they kidding or are truly that obtuse.

It has indeed reached mystical proportions at times, drawing upon what I call the ancestor worship phenomenon, (the ancients had secrets and wisdom we mere mortals cannot fathom). When I see hand-wringing and speculation over the advantages in harmonics that could explain the fuller running up onto the tang, because the ancients knew something we didn’t, well we need to just step back and take a deep breath and think about what happens to the profile of a blade if one stops short of the tang while forging in a fuller. Before we go leaping into harmonic pyramid power, let’s consider Occams Razor.

In conclusion, I have not seen anything that would lead me to believe that Tinker has gone overboard with a pseudo science, but some consumers will singularly latch onto areas such as this in an unrealistic way until you have groups of young people walking from table to table at a show, divining every attribute of a sword by thumping the pommel with a scrying gaze at the blade (it is good entertainment, to be honest). My view is that there are some swords that “wobble” in the wrong places, but they have to be atrociously made to do so. Form does indeed follow function, but when it does function will follow form, and now as in the distant past, making a well balanced and proportioned design will naturally put the nodes where they belong without the need to design a blade around them. Studying a good original piece is worth all the node chasing one could do.

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Matthew_Anderson
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:07 am

Wow, good post Kevin, that all made a lot of sense, both from the swordsmith's perspective as well as the swordsman's. Thanks!
Matt Anderson
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ARMA Virginia Beach

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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:41 pm

I did witness Champagne on History Channel yesterday. He did seem to have the simple view that I do about these things, when he stated, simply, that when fitting the hilting of a sword, things needed to be tight. No mention of harmonic balance concerns, no node-concerns, no wavelength-parabola-sine-cosine concerns, etc.

I do not presume to speak for that fine craftman. But since that was the fourth time I have viewed that program, and thus heard him say it yet again as he was demonstrating a rough-fitting, well, I am pretty sure I understand what the man means: That a much more important concern than harmonic balance was making sure that things fit tightly -- along with material quality, tempering, correct proportions and proper bevel, to which he spoke and demonstrated as well.

All of which basically constitutes good craftsmanship of a sword.
JLH



*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

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John_Clements
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby John_Clements » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:05 pm

Well, I can say I am confident I know something of Paul's feelings as well as that of other respected swordsmiths on the subject and how it's been misconstrued .

The simple matter is, while it has been observed that variations in the dimensions within specific functional historical sword types generally follow certain parameters of “harmonic” proportions [i.e., they are mechanically in “tune”], this has nothing to do with ideal impact “vibrations.”

Going around saying that a fabricated blade is more special now becuase it was made with deference to "harmonics" is the kind of thing where we end up with the silliness of naïve folks holding a sword in one hand and going, “MmmHmmm…” as they slap the flat of the blade with the other so they can “check its harmonic vibration” from the wobble.

JC

p.s.
thanks Kevin!
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Shane Smith
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby Shane Smith » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:14 pm

I respect your opinion on this matter but I more firmly respect the fact that you refused to be quoted anonymously. That would have been less than manly in my opinion.
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Shane Smith
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby Shane Smith » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:17 pm

...with the silliness of naïve folks holding a sword in one hand and going, “MmmHmmm…” as they slap the flat of the blade with the other so they can “check its harmonic vibration” from the wobble.


If you see me holding a sword in my right hand and smacking the pommel with my left, I'm checking blade stiffness <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
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GaryGrzybek
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Re: So-Called Harmonic Balance

Postby GaryGrzybek » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:24 pm

Thanks Kevin!

My opinion has always been that people just get too hung up on the harmonic balance thing.
Gary

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