The Bodkin Arrow vs. Plate

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George Turner
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Re: The Bodkin Arrow vs. Plate

Postby George Turner » Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:14 pm

It's possible, but back then wasn't the whole study of generalship and command an exercise in how to employ mixed units in formation against the enemy, with experiments in different make-ups, formation sizes, and densities? It seems unlikely that the experienced French would screw the pooch that badly, an obvious and elementary blunder and one that had to gradually worsen as they marched forward. On the flip side, if this is what truly decided the battle, the English would have to be complete idiots to bet their entire army on the unlikely event that the French would make such a horrible and amateur mistake. An explanation of a famous battle that supposes both commanders to be completely wreckless and incompetent isn't one I find compelling.

Here's more, with the key point based on witness accounts.

But at this moment the archers, taking their hatchets, swords or other weapons, penetrated the gaps in the now disordered French, who could not move to cope with their unarmoured assailants, and were slaughtered or taken prisoners to a man.


This neglects to mention that "stakes and spears" were prominently mentioned in what the archers used when they waded into combat. It also asks us to believe that unarmored assailants, given similar weapons, can slaughter armored ones. If that's true, why did anyone ever bother wearing armor?

If the whole French line could only kill 113 English men-at-arms in the whole battle, while fighting in heavy armor, it's a stretch that lightly armored archers, using hatchets and swords, could kill 5,000 equally armored French men-at-arms in a similar timespan, much less with a 50:1 or 100:1 kill ratio. I'd suggest that in any poorly organized attack over difficult terrain, a lightly armored man who doesn't have any reach advantage over his better armed adversaries would normally result in a kill ratio that favors the heavily armored knights. When I see a lopsided kill ratio like that, I start thinking that one side must've been able to fight while staying out of lethal weapon range of the other. That makes me think that a pole arm formation executing an envelopment from the flanks requires the least stretch of imagination, as even with long wooden anti-cavalry stakes the archers could've killed or knocked down and pinned the French men-at-arms, finishing them off with hatchets if need be. If would also explain why the French couldn't just back up, as they were being enveloped. That action would certainly pack the French line together, compressing it into a useless mob no matter how good the French planning had been.

If you look at this map of the second stage of the battle, you can see it's perfectly set up for such a maneuver.

Here are some links on schiltrons. Stirling Bridge
Falkirk

Another Falkirk link

One reading of the Stirling Bridge battle is how Wallace goaded the English into a precipitous charge across the bridge, where the schiltrons were to cut them down. The technique was further refined by Robert the Bruce, who famously used it at Bannockburn in 1314.

About half-way down in the last paragraph of this we see Robert boldly riding with his crown on, making himself an obvious target and frankly some sweet bait, drawing the English into another precipitious attack. Then Robert unleashed his schiltrons.

[color="blue"]Edward II thought that the Scots were terrified of a head to head confrontation, and when they began advancing, he was convinced that victory was in his hand. He ordered the Earl of Gloucester to launch a massive full-frontal attack, but the inexperienced Edward did not realise that he had fallen straight into Bruce's trap. Edwards forces were positioned on the boggy carse, as Bruce had intended, and were also squeezed between two streams - the Bannock Burn and the Pelstream Burn. On launching the attack, the Earl of Gloucester was met by the advancing schiltrons of Bruce's army. The circular hedgehog-like formations of Scottish spears cut down the English cavalry and repulsed their advance. The Earl was killed, and Edward had lost one of his few battle tacticians [/color]


The technique is to goad the enemy into attacking at a position (Stirling Bridge) or on terrain (boggy ground) that hinders their movement, where they can be pinned and cut down by a phalanx of overlapping spears, which are best unleashed as a complete surprise. If the schiltrons attack from the flanks they'd crush any opposing formation.

The English and Scots kept up with the spear combat, here recorded in The Ballad of Chevy Chase, about a 1388 battle, just 27 years prior to Agincourt.

[color="blue"] Of fifteen hondrith archars of Ynglonde
went away but seuenti and thre;
Of twenti hondrith spear-men of Skotlonde,
but even five and fifti.
[/color]


So it makes me wonder whether the English archers didn't "just wade in", that their maneuver was part of the English plan, which depended on goading the French into a frontal assault on the English line. They also eliminated the French cavalry first, which would present the only threat to a wheeling flank of English archers. It just smells like something carefully planned, especially given the results. However, given the mud and confusion, to the French it may have looked like a confusing action executed on the spur of the moment.

Unfortunately I haven't had time to dig into the first-hand sources in enough detail to flesh out this idea.

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Neil Bockus
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Re: The Bodkin Arrow vs. Plate

Postby Neil Bockus » Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:05 pm

I'd suppose another aspect is what era plate are we looking at. From what I've researched, by the 1500's, armorers had got the armor tough enough to beat firearms, indeed, they even tested breast plates by shooting them, and hence the term "bulletproof" was born...and then the musket came along in the late 16th - early 17th centuries and ruined it for everybody <img src="/forum/images/icons/mad.gif" alt="" /> . How well could a bodkin punch armor compared to a gun? As for the 14th century plate armor, I also saw the special "Weapons that made England," and certainly close in those things could get through. I just wonder if the maximum force offered by the longbow would be enough to send the same arrow through a "bulletproof" plate two centuries later.
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Parker Brown
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Re: The Bodkin Arrow vs. Plate

Postby Parker Brown » Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:45 am

The ability for a longbow to penetrate armour is illustrated in a 12 century account by Gerald of Wales:

"...in the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuises, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal." (Itinerarium Cambriae, (1191)

While this account was almost 200 years before Agincourt and more than 100 years before Crecy, it does demonstrat that the longbow had enough power not only to penetrate the armour, but to actually pin the rider to their mount with the arrow!

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Risto Rautiainen
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Re: The Bodkin Arrow vs. Plate

Postby Risto Rautiainen » Mon Oct 31, 2005 6:25 am

The account written by Gerald of Wales always comes up in these discussions and is always debunked as it seems he's not a very reliable source because he's not an eye witness...

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philippewillaume
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Re: The Bodkin Arrow vs. Plate

Postby philippewillaume » Mon Oct 31, 2005 8:55 am

Hello
I am totally with George here.
If we take original sources.
We know that Armour, which was to be stored in a town arsenal, was proofed against bow crossbow and windlass crossbow (in 1425).
A windlass fire at heavier bolt (150-200 gram) at a greater initial speed than a long bow 60 grams)
From two other texts in the 1470 (one English one French) we know that a jack of 25-31 layer of linen with buck leather will stop a sword cut and an arrow.

We know from an English (Geoffrey le Baker) about Poiter 1356
&amp;#8220;For the horsemen, as has been said, had the special purpose of overrunning the archers, and of protecting their army from the arrows. Standing near their own men they faced the archers with their chests so solidly protected with plate and mail and leather shields, that the arrows were either fended off directly or broken in pieces by the hard objects or were diverted upwards&amp;#8221;.
He proceed to say that the horse were shoot in the rear quarter that were less well protected

We know as well that the Italian (Lombard) rode through the English archer at Verneuil. We know as well that that they rode big horses, which were as well armored as the rider

In any battle the French men at arms always arrived into contact with the English, and for example at Patay and Formigny or Verneuil, if the longbow was so efficient against horses how come that they did not stop the riders in those case?

I believe that after Crecy, there were French heavy horses whose purpose was to disrupt the archer. I suspect that those men and horse were especially well armored.
We know that that was the case, at Poitier and Verneuil and at agencourt that was the plan). So I think we can assume that the cavalry charge at agincourt was likely to be relatively well armored.
In any case all that seems to indicate that man and horses, at least those whose mission it was to tackle the archer, were adequately protected.
In that case we need to ask ourselves the reverse question as precedently, if they charges were successful at Patay, Formigny and Verneuil why did they fail at Azincout and Poitier ?

I think for that we need to look at battles where heavy cavalry was defeated.
If we take Courtay, Azincourt and Poititer, we can see that there was always an obstacle that broke the cavalry momentum and or put the opposing troops out of reach of the attacking horseman
A ditch, thicket and hedges or stakes (for the matter at hand, piques or schiltron spears are really just portable stakes),

On horse movement, or the ability to produce it is paramount, at Courtai the Flemish militia counter-charge the knight when they were crossing the ditch.
In those condition can an arrow pierce full plate is a moot point.
With the horse slowed down or being out of the rider range, the archer can pick a weak spot (armour mail part or less armoured part of the horse.)
In fact the less armored part will probably be at you advantage because it is more likely to create a repeating sting effect (like a horse-fly or a taon) instead of a would proper.
A constant prickling will cause the hose to become unmanageable much more quickly and surely than a deeper wound.


Philippe
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Rod-Thornton
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Re: The Bodkin Arrow vs. Plate-Odds Bodkins!

Postby Rod-Thornton » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:42 pm

Risto:

You had indicated that the arrow, even should it fail to penetrate, would give quite a blow.

Respectfully, That's simply not the case. Arrows kill through mass hemmorhage or through introduction of infectious puncture wounds. Impact as defined by blunt trauma (read: "arrow didn't penetrate" here) is a function of force...force =mass x acceleration.....acceleration is velocity squared.... Basic physics lesson. a 600 grain arrow (a "hefty" log to fling, by any bow's standard) will move at speeds less than 250 fps...even under optimal 'oompa'... and it will generate something in the neighborhod of a mere 65 foot-pounds of energy. Even a modern .22 rimfire doubles that "knock down" power.

Unless the arrow penetrated, was sharp, or splintered and made tiny fleschets to pierce the visor, etc., the actual thump is not alot. Harvesting a large number of deer over the years, I can certainly confirm the truth in the theoretical math....arrows need to penetrate and/or cut. Now with the bodkin, the focusing of that mere 65 ft. lbs. into a point the size of a push-pin makes the force able to penetrate some plates at some ranges, but for shear thumping...65 ft. lbs is not much pummeling power.

(On a whim I went outside and shot a 55 gallon drum with an arrow on 85lb. bow at 20 yds.. Field point punched right through it. Now I know that it is not tempered steel...but it does look to be 16 gauge.)
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JohnGallego
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Re: The Bodkin Arrow vs. Plate

Postby JohnGallego » Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:38 pm

This account, (if true, and it's veracity has come into question as stated above) was almost certainly about MAIL and NOT plate armor.

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Stacy Clifford
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Re: The Bodkin Arrow vs. Plate-Odds Bodkins!

Postby Stacy Clifford » Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:05 am

Good point on the math there, and the deflective properties of plate decrease that further. Just the same, multiply that 65 ft. lbs. per arrow by the number of arrows flying at you per second, times however long it takes for you to get close enough to make the archers drop their bows, and that's bound to get a bit wearisome. One ant bite doesn't hurt much either, but when ants bring friends...
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Risto Rautiainen
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Re: The Bodkin Arrow vs. Plate-Odds Bodkins!

Postby Risto Rautiainen » Tue Nov 01, 2005 1:48 am

Rod:

A 600 grain arrow is quite light for a ELB war arrow... I think 900-1000 would be a bit better and maybe 200 fps would be more close. Would that make even less energy, but more momentum? But anyways I was only bringing someone elses account of what it feels like to be shot at with a bow. I haven't been shot at and really wouldn't want to either.

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Rod-Thornton
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Re: The Bodkin Arrow vs. Plate-Odds Bodkins!

Postby Rod-Thornton » Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:00 am

Yeah, it would add around another 25lbs. Weight is the "force majore" here with such low velocities as these. However, ballistics likely ain't much "on-topic" for the forum.... Still, in terms of armour, I think the real mechanism of effectiveness is as Shane quoted.... Poke the horse. Sadly, I've ended up "under horse" when even something tiny like a few bee stings pinch their hides. Can't imagine a couple of bodkins in the flanks.

For that matter, does anyone know if a mount's harness was made to the same quality and hardening/fit, etc. for the animals as it was for the rider?
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