Two handers

For Historical European Fighting Arts, Weaponry, & Armor

Moderators: Webmaster, Stacy Clifford

User avatar
Rodolfo Martínez
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:02 am
Location: Argentina

Postby Rodolfo Martínez » Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:43 pm

So because Japanese steel wasn´t as good as european or chinese, and katanas only had to be made of japanese steel. But even with poor steel some smiths like Masamune, were able to make formidable blades. I saw curved european swords like odachis called Grossemesser (Were Grossemessers used by knights too?). I heard about the lost technique of Damascus steel (Said to be the best) and the almost legendary Damascus swords. But were european swords, like longswords, or two handers made of Damascus steel too?

I know it´s out of topic, but, can someone explain me the difference betwen longswords and bastard swords? I searched in some sites, and some say that both swords are the same, and others say that bastardswords have longer grips or blades.

Thanks.
Non nobis Domine...

Adam Bodorics
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:29 am

Postby Adam Bodorics » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:11 pm

I wouldn't say that damascus steel is a lost technique... europeans had a difficult time figuring out how to make wootz ("true" damascus), but pattern welding (the "usual" damascus) was always available after 400 (even if they didn't use it much, they could make it)... and by now, you can order billets of pattern welded steel and ingots of wootz online...
I don't know about wootz longsword in Europe, but as wootz was invented some 1800 years ago and europeans had confronted with enemies wielding them, I'd say it's possible, especially as there were muslim-christian alliances sometimes. Hey, if the king of Poland got a char-ai-na from the shah of Persia... :lol:

User avatar
Jeff Hansen
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:48 pm
Location: Pelham, AL

Postby Jeff Hansen » Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:12 am

[quote
I know it´s out of topic, but, can someone explain me the difference betwen longswords and bastard swords? I searched in some sites, and some say that both swords are the same, and others say that bastardswords have longer grips or blades.

Thanks.[/quote]

As we in ARMA use the term, a bastard sword is a later type of sword having a blade tapered for its full length and sharp point. It's intended more for use against the gaps in plate armor, as opposed to the earlier types with essentially parallel edges oriented more towards cutting.
Jeff Hansen
ARMA FS
Birmingham, AL study group leader

"A coward believes he will ever live
if he keep him safe from strife:
but old age leaves him not long in peace
though spears may spare his life." - from The Havamal

User avatar
Rodolfo Martínez
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:02 am
Location: Argentina

Postby Rodolfo Martínez » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:19 am

But were bastard swords good at cutting against light armored soldiers or archers too, or were only designed to thrust like tucks?
Non nobis Domine...

User avatar
Allen Johnson
Posts: 638
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:43 am
Location: Columbia, SC

Postby Allen Johnson » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:42 am

Even tapered bastard swords could cut very well.
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

User avatar
Rodolfo Martínez
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:02 am
Location: Argentina

Postby Rodolfo Martínez » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:15 am

So those swords were primary designed to fight against armor. I saw some full suits of armors of XVI century, but my doubt is if in XVI century were knights too, or they ended in XV century?
Non nobis Domine...

User avatar
Allen Johnson
Posts: 638
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:43 am
Location: Columbia, SC

Postby Allen Johnson » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:17 am

It dosent matter if they were specifically called "knights" or just armored cavalry or whatever, they served the same purpose. Remember that Knight is a persons title, not their fighting style. So yes in the 16th century there were people that had a similar purpose in battle as knights in the 15th or 14th century.

One of the stregnths of the bastard sword is that it is very versitile. You can use it to fight against armored or unarmored. Your techniques will change, not the weapon.
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

User avatar
Rodolfo Martínez
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:02 am
Location: Argentina

Postby Rodolfo Martínez » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:24 am

As heavy cavalry? I saw nobles of 16th century with full armors and weapons like two handers, but they weren´t swiss or german mercenaries. Even knights of Malta, some of them with italian full armours weilding great two handed swords in the Malta museum. But then cuirassiers...
Last edited by Rodolfo Martínez on Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Non nobis Domine...

kenneth
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:45 am

Two Handed Swords

Postby kenneth » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:11 pm

Greetings,

The use of one versus two swords may be cultural/systems based as well. Given the emphasis of thrusting in the European traditions, as opposed to, say, my own African traditions (such as that of the Gangi, whose weapons use features double sword and" machete" based techniques as well as Kaskara use-the Gangi are the traditional warrior/hunters of the Hausa- examples of whom are found across Western Africa- speaking peoples of Nigeria), it does not appear to have been of practical use in the European based systems.

Likewise, the length of swords have been designed in a manner which would make double use highly ineffective in much of the European traditions.

Having said this, two swords may offer an advantage in simultaneous attack and defense but would require a firm foundation in singular weapons combat for greatest efficacy. I base this on the following:

Please view the thread below (you'll have to scroll down some) for a brief description on the Gangi swordplay as posted by poster Damian Hector:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread ... post142399

The Hausa's Gangi not only perform their weapons based martial art for demonstrations purposes during festival ocassions, they use them in real disputes after the hunting expeditions when one Gangi challenges the hunter/associated Gangi prowess of another. Serious injury and death are often the results, so these are not armchair enthusiasts.

The bottom line is, the system and skill of the exponents in question will determine the efficacy of any methodology more than whether or not an exponent utilizes one or two swords. There are no hard-and-fast rules.

Fraternal,

Kenneth
If you miss me with your thrust, cancel christmas...

kenneth
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:45 am

Double Swords Thread-wrong thread

Postby kenneth » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:39 pm

My Apologies,

My post on double swordplay/Hausa weapons use should have been posted on the double swords use.

Again, my apologies for the mix up.

Kenneth
If you miss me with your thrust, cancel christmas...

User avatar
Rodolfo Martínez
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:02 am
Location: Argentina

Postby Rodolfo Martínez » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:54 pm

I know little more than nothing about swords and martial arts, but this is what i think.
Well, i did´t know that African martial arts existed, but that doesn´t surprise me. African warriors are pretty skilled. Some days ago i saw two warriors( I think they are Massai) fighting with long sticks, and they were performing the fight pretty fast. Those warriors were very skilled, but the purpouse of the fight wasn´t killing the other warrior, it was a fight between members of different tribes. One of the rules of this fight was not to attack an opponent when he is in the floor (I can´t remember any more). Massai warriors fight even against male lions, and if you don´t know how to use a spear and a shield properly as almighty God demands, be sure of becoming the lion´s meal. Surelly a lot more cultures had martial arts techniques for their warriors.

The Hausa's Gangi not only perform their weapons based martial art for demonstrations purposes during festival ocassions, they use them in real disputes after the hunting expeditions when one Gangi challenges the hunter/associated Gangi prowess of another. Serious injury and death are often the results, so these are not armchair enthusiasts.


About this quote, medieval martial arts are not only for demostration purpouses, i mean, you are not going to kill anybody, but in the past those techniques were used in war, to shred blood. So demonstration purpouse during festival ocassions, could be, but remember that Japanese samurais, European Knights and Massai warriors are trained to kill, not to entertain.

The use of one versus two swords may be cultural/systems based as well. Given the emphasis of thrusting in the European traditions, as opposed to, say, my own African traditions (such as that of the Gangi, whose weapons use features double sword and" machete" based techniques as well as Kaskara use-the Gangi are the traditional warrior/hunters of the Hausa- examples of whom are found across Western Africa- speaking peoples of Nigeria), it does not appear to have been of practical use in the European based systems.


And remember that weapons wich can seem useless with some techniques can be very effective with others, you see, if you try to half sword with a Katana shurely you will lose your fingers, so Katanas aren´t for practical use in european half sword tachniques. But Katanas are very effective in kendo techs. Someone who studies kendo or another samurai martial art will not find of any utility straight arming swords, two handers or longswords, but in hands of a medieval knight those straight ¨archaic clumsy things¨(Ironically, i had problems to say such thing without explanation :x ) became lethal weapons capable of dismembering while being unsharpened, very versatile weapons. See the rapier, a kendo student will surely see a rapier and will laugh, but the rapier, used with proper techniques is a very lethal weapon, this techniques are not foun in kendo, and is not practic try those moves with Katanas or wakizashis, but this doesn´t useless or non practical rapier swords. So Machete or twin sword techniques of Nigerians can seem to be non practical from the Flos duellatorum, but with African martial arts techniques can be very lethal. Weapons or their combination are not made to suit in every martial art, For example when you see an abysinian shotel (A double edged sword with a semicircular curvature) you soonly discover that is not good at stabing, or slashing, not for using Dei Liberi techniques, but those swords are made to grip, and with the style of abysinians those shotels can be deadly (Maybe you can grip your opponent´s neck :? ) The same goes for japanese Kamas, out of ninjutsu those weapons doesn´t seem to be very practical, but they are.

Que Dios los bendiga.

P.D. Are bastard swords more versatile than two handers? (Talking about being in the middle of the battlefield foot fighting against heavy and lightly armored senemies)
Non nobis Domine...

User avatar
Allen Johnson
Posts: 638
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:43 am
Location: Columbia, SC

Postby Allen Johnson » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:26 am

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:P.D. Are bastard swords more versatile than two handers? (Talking about being in the middle of the battlefield foot fighting against heavy and lightly armored senemies)


Everyone has their own preference. Many would argue both ways and neither would be wrong.
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

User avatar
Rodolfo Martínez
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:02 am
Location: Argentina

Postby Rodolfo Martínez » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:49 am

In Flos Duellatorum you can perform very similar techniques with longswords and two handers, does this happen in other manuals?
Non nobis Domine...

User avatar
Jake_Norwood
Posts: 913
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 11:46 am
Location: Clarksville, TN

Postby Jake_Norwood » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:04 am

All longsword Greatsword techniques (well, almost all) appear also in messer treatises in a one-handed variety.

Jake
Sen. Free Scholar
ARMA Deputy Director

LafayetteCCurtis
Posts: 421
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:00 pm

Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:36 pm

Rodolfo Martínez wrote:But Katanas are very effective in kendo techs.


This is just like saying that medieval European arming swords can be effectively used with modern sport fencing techniques. Kendo, like fencing, is a highly stylized martial art, and its movement patterns are now geared more towards speed and making obvious scoring hits rather than practical fighting application. It is still considered a good swordsmanship training device, but mostly for its role in sharpening the speed and competitive instincts -- not for its techniques.


Return to “Research and Training Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

 
 

Note: ARMA - The Association for Renaissance Martial Arts and the ARMA logo are federally registered trademarks, copyright 2001. All rights reserved. No use of the ARMA name or emblem is permitted without authorization. Reproduction of material from this site without written permission of the authors is strictly prohibited. HACA and The Historical Armed Combat Association copyright 1999 by John Clements. All rights reserved. Contents of this site 1999 by ARMA.