False information in a "documentary"

[Peter Goranov]

Thank you, good that this was cleared up. I had been insisting on not describing early swords as Broadsword elsewhere and I'm glad that the ARMA has been right all along

[terry brown]

{ So if you want to call a 9th century weapon, a Brádswurd that's fine, but please don't call it a Broadsword.

I believe this is the proper interpretation of the appearance of brād swurd, at least in Old English. Adjectives do fuse at times to form a compound word later in a language and the existence of the use of brād should not be cited as an example of the compound word.[/quote]

Hi Mike,
The compound Bradswurd does exist in the source I quoted in my inituial post. Broad sword (in all its variant spellings)also exists in many period sources.

I don't know why people are trying to deny historical evidence. As I said in a previous post I am not particularly bothered what people call swords and if some people want to insist that the term should be applied to a particular type of 17th century sword that's up to them.

However the fact remains that whatever type of sword was being referred to, and regardless of the broadsword article on this site our ancestors did, repeat, did use the terms broadsword and broad sword (in all their variant spellings).
Best wishes,
Terry

[Stacy Clifford]

I don't think anyone is disputing the existence of your evidence, Terry, those examples you provided are very good, but I don't see anything wrong with debating whether the term as used back then really meant the same thing as it does when it is used in the modern era. (And keep in mind that broadsword article is one of the older ones on this site, so it may very well be in need of an update that hasn't been gotten to yet.) If I'm in the mood to make my troops sound well equipped then I might not hesitate to describe their "good broad swords," but I would shy away from using those words as a type description if all swords are broad without being more certain that that's how it was really used. Now if there is an example listing several types of swords and brad swurd happens to be one of them, I would consider that a more definitive example of it being used as a type name. I think it's fair to say that if you were writing a story set in the 1400s that it is historically valid to use "broad sword" or even "broadsword," but in exactly what context of meaning is the debatable part.

[Mike Sega]

[Hi Mike,
The compound [i]Bradswurd does exist in the source I quoted in my inituial post. Broad sword (in all its variant spellings)also exists in many period sources.][/i]

Hello Terry,

Looking through my copy of Bright's Old English Grammar and Reader I looked through the Battle of Maldon and found of all instances of Sword (Swyrd, Sweord, etc). The only phrase with broad is bord ond brād swyrd Line15. In Judith, we have the same phrase in line317. Basically, shield and broad sword.

These aren't written as compounds,but as separate words, however, more telling is that the sword is referred after that simply as a sword: the ancient enemy killed, laid to rest by the sword swyrdum āswefede

It is interesting to note that in the Sacrifice of Isaac copied from Genesis A (same source book above) the item Abraham is intending to use to perform his sacrifice is a grey sword grǣgan sweorde

Perhaps this use is to differentiate from Abrahams earlier weapon from the item now possibly termed broad sword? Maybe, but I believe that broad used in Old English was more a term used to identify a weapon of distinction rather than separate it from a different type of sword.

Looking in Beowulf (3rd edition Klaeber the one item I was able to find was line 2978 brād(n)e mice, ...ealdsweard eotonisc...Broad or wide sword, ancient sword built by giants (Ettins) Another use of brād that helps illuminate this meaning or use of this time period is 3104-3105 ɸæt gē genōge nēon scēawiaƌ bēagas ond brād gold such that one is near enough to behold precious jewels (the crown) and a wide gold. Perhaps the meaning is a vast array of gold or items crafted with plenty of the metal.

The point I am making with this use of broad or wide in Old English is that the term is more descriptive of a expensive or large weapon, one that is used by the hero as opposed to the regular soldier. Broad because it is not rusted away, wide and of a shining edge brad ond brunecg

Eventually, broadsword comes to mean something more distinct in the 17th century vs the backsword.

/I don't know why people are trying to deny historical evidence. As I said in a previous post I am not particularly bothered what people call swords and if some people want to insist that the term should be applied to a particular type of 17th century sword that's up to them./

Not deny, just put in context. The distinctive term is more recent and being applied to earlier times that didn't have the same distinction from my understanding of Old English.


/However the fact remains that whatever type of sword was being referred to, and regardless of the broadsword article on this site our ancestors did, repeat, did use the terms broadsword and broad sword (in all their variant spellings)./

Yes, but the meaning we attribute to the term today was not necessarily the meaning they had back then. All swords were broadswords.

Now, I have not looked at Middle English, and there might be a distinction between English and western swords vs curved weapons of the east, but I haven't seen or heard any discussion on that being the reason for the term broad sword. My idea is that the poetic use of the term in Old English slowly became the common term for sword much as meat became the term for animal flesh whereas it used to mean all food.


Thanks,
Mike Sega
Scholar Adept
Las Vegas ARMA

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Now, I have not looked at Middle English, and there might be a distinction between English and western swords vs curved weapons of the east,

Not very likely, I guess. A lot of Eastern swords were straight (and indeed very similar to European swords) during the period we usually ascribe to ME.