Dagger Stabs

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Jay Vail
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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby Jay Vail » Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:21 am

excellent observations, Jeanry

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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby Jay Vail » Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:24 am

It is my understanding of reading the fechtbuchen that any block without an attempt to move the torso out of the way when an opponent is carrying a dagger is not reccomended.


Gene, I must respectfully disagree. I have studied about 10 sources for dagger techniques in depth and only one of them, Meyer, recommends body shifting as part of the defense, and even then Meyer only mentions it with one or two techniques. I think the medieval dagger defenses are designed for use in the worst case scenario, when your enemy is in the true place and you have no time to move out of the way and barely enough time to get your hands up to cover.

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Mike Cartier
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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby Mike Cartier » Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:48 am

using a stabby knife is a different thing than using a slicey knife. If I am using a slicy knife I will be trying to cut you at long distance, preferably underneath your wrist. the key to dropping someone with a cutting knife is either to get a good cut on an artery or cut them across the face and eyes.
If you get cut well on an artery you will bleed out your life in a matter of minutes especially if you are engaged in strenuous activity. Adrenaline is a wonderful thing but when you have an open wound on a major artery its not so wonderful, your blood will simply pump out faster. This is why FMA knife fighters are taught to take cuts on areas with little arterial targets like the outside of the forearms.

My old habits from my FMA days are to slice and cut from liong range or clash and control, by clash and control i mean charge in cutting and deftly put my left hand on the opponents knife hand. Not to grab him mind you but simply to feel and immobolize his hand ever so breifly, just enough for me to get in some good cuts and stabs to the face and torso before i withdraw away. you cannot hold a persons arms with one hand on thier knife hand so don't try, simply ride it with control and deflect it away.

here is a video of me and David Knight doing some cutting knife sparring. Edged knife sparring

Now using a stabbingonly knife like a rondell is a bit different, IMHO the idea of lunging in for a death blow is what will get you killed, rather Zufechten should be used with medium flowing thrusts from all angles to prepare the mighty death lunge. if the opponent is in recieveing mode when you do you death lunge he will use all those wonderful tricks from the manuals on you, just like Aikido however if you don't give them the energy they will not get the chance. i also try to gain a minimal amount of control of the opponent's arm to gain a split second to get in a rib stab. I think the main targets for the medium stabs are the face and neck, ribs/guts and the top of the oppoenents attacking arm as he strikes. generally as i enter to attack i do a series of quick stabs from various angles to make it difficult for the guy to counter and once i gain control of his arm i place a good stab from above into the top of the neck or face.
here is a video of me and Dave doing some rondell sparring. Rondell Sparring

Its important not to simply do the snipping attacks with either a cutting or stabbing knife, the parts of the fight as described by Meyer fit in here perfectly. Snipping attacks are for the Zufechten, once the weapons lock in at a close range however we change to the Krieg part of the fight and must change our strategy. The last part is of course the withdrawal.

IMHO the clash together is where the knife fight is won or lost, master the clash and you will survive the fight and kill the opponent. Most people can get comfortable playing the Zufechten part of the fight, but once the Krieg happens everything falls to peices as its very fast and you have to develop a lighting quick response to attacks to not get stabbed yourself. When i spar i will force myself to jump into the Krieg with a wild attack to train this close quarter stuff.

The goal of a cutting knife fight is twofold
1. cut the opponent in a good spot from Zufechten to take away his will to fight, many opponents will be finished here if they are not motivated.
2. finish the fight by charging the opponent with a barrage of cuts and control his weapon arm, you should end up cutting the guy somehwere between 5 and 10 times on this attack. The goal is to finish by cutting acros the throat or face or to open up the belly.

i think a good understanding of the parts of the fight is important here, just like in modern MMA the phases of the fight dictate the strategy, each phase/part has a different strategy.
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Matthew_Anderson
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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:10 am

Good post Mike!

Those videos really illustrate the difference between trying to cut and trying to stab. I notice too, that in the rondel video, there were a lot more attempts to seize and control the opponents dagger hand/arm. I'm sure you guys know this, but it's important to remember that just because it's a dagger fight doesn't mean you can't get punched or kicked! If you are close enough to stab me, you are close enough for a kick and maybe even a hand strike. One of my favorite tactics is to throw a big kick to the outside of the forward leg. I did this to Shane one time when dagger sparring. We were both intensely focused on thrusting each other, circling and darting in and out of range when I leaned back and threw a side kick with my right leg to his left. I caught him right above his knee and down he went! I was so surprised that it worked, I forgot to follow up, so he just jumped up and we kept going <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> .
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Mike Cartier
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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby Mike Cartier » Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:33 am

yes too true, i always get wrapped up in my weapon fun and forget to strike. David Knight reminded me off this a few weeks ago with a nice punch in the face during Longsword sparring. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
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David_Knight
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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby David_Knight » Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:50 am

here is a video of me and David Knight doing some cutting knife sparring. Edged knife sparring

And there slew Mike me, yea, and placed he the bits in little pots. Here endeth the lesson. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
David Knight reminded me off this a few weeks ago with a nice punch in the face during Longsword sparring.

I think I threw a punch to your face at some point in that Rondel vid, too... The fact that the hands/wrists are in a natural striking position is one of the things I like best about the reverse grip.

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JeffGentry
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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby JeffGentry » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:16 pm

Hey Guy's

Just a couple of thing's on the video's, as far as the cutting knife first of all if I have any way out I will not hang around and get into a knife fight with a cutting blade if you do your a moron you will be seriously injured IMO the phrase "run away, run away" leap's to mind in that situation.

Now the rondell, I saw a couple of good forearm stop block's and not much working to the side by either party, off the block, and no closing in at the block to finish the fight IMO you cannot be afraid to close once you make the block, control the arm either by winding (remember fulen does apply here also) and closing, trapping, gripping whatever, use your footwork and close, closing is important IMO, When you stop his weapon gain some sort of control and close, let me clarify what I mean by "close" I mean either to traverse forward or pull them toward you this applies to both parties, get them close enough to throw if you need too there are numerous throw's in the dagger section of all the fechtbuch's and most cannot be executed at arm's length, You are better off if your arm is on his you know where his arm is, so what if he blast you in the face with a fist, a broken nose is better than a knife in my gut, I'll take that trade.

When your out on the end of his arm trying to control it, it will be much harded to control, i think rondell fighting is a more close in proposition.

IMHO


Jeff

P.S. I too am guilty of doing what I said not to, I am working on correcting that in my own Rondell fighting.
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Jared L. Cass
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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby Jared L. Cass » Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:10 pm

What a great thread! Here's my thoughts on medieval dagger fighting. The two cents are as follows(Aaron, you'll recoginive this stuff as the same stuff I sent you last year):

1)Be aggressive. Move in when ever possible.
2)Control opponents weapon/weapon arm.
3)If possible, dammage the above...remove it's threat.
4)Stab strongly and repedidly.
5)aim for soft areas/unprotected areas.
6)only cut to: the throat, the wrists, the back of the hands, and the forehead/eyes.
7)only cut to set up decisive stabs.
8)Almost 100% of the time, move to the opponents outside.
9)Throw the opponent/break him whenever possible. Prefferably, throw the opponent onto his stomach
10)Kick, punch, headbutt, claw, ect ALWAYS
11)When possible while training, avoid a "dueling mindest" ie:drawn knife vs drawn knife. Instead, start out in an unarmed state or unarmed vs drawn dagger
12)Most important while training: practice bringing the dagger into play.

As you can see from my thoughts, I differ on some of what has been discussed here and agree with others. Most notably numbers 1, 4, and 11.

Heres why: Number 1. In my way of thinking, it doesn't pay to pussyfoot around. you want to kill the guy. Go in there and get him! You can always follow Silvers advice and get the heck out of range again after you stabbed/bashed the opponent some.

Number 4. Not only does it increase your chances of making contact, but it also puts one into an incredibly aggressive mindset. Does this mean to not make commited stabs? Heck no! It means to stab them strongly as many times as you can.

Number 11. This is a toufgh one because you want to practice the given grapples/breaks/thrusts as they are depicted. But, the danger lies in getting that " dualing mentality." This is where the quick fast snip snips circle circle snip ect happens. Sure some (but far from all period manuals AFAIK) have dagger fighting presented in a juducial dualing setting...but I believe that the vast majority are just like the longsword stuff. That is: designed to use on the field of battle and in self defence.

This last part above really ties in with Jeanries very true observations that we can't let ourselves see this fight through modern eyes. Yes, 99.9% of it translates over to our times...but not the other way around.

Where the manual stuff comes alive isn't in the dueling context, but as many of us have seen, in the sparring/as real as we can get context. In our longsword sparring are we there to snip away at them or to "kill them" as quickly as we can? Why should we view the dagger fight as different?

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby david welch » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:51 pm

Number 4. Not only does it increase your chances of making contact, but it also puts one into an incredibly aggressive mindset. Does this mean to not make commited stabs? Heck no! It means to stab them strongly as many times as you can.



That is why today when the purpose is robbery, a guy will roll into the ER with a shoulder wound, a neck wound, and a kidney wound, but a prison shanking where one guy just wanted to kill the other one will have 30, 40, or 100 wounds to the vascular triangle ( nipple, nipple, hollow of the throat).
"A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand." Lucius Annaeus Seneca 4BC-65AD.

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Derek Gulas
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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby Derek Gulas » Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:54 pm

I was thinking, and I decided that my main problem with the idea of stabbing someone and backing off while they bleed to death is one thing. That is, when you start backing off, you loose the initiative, the Vor. This means that you're in the Nach for a while, reacting to whatever this guy might have left to throw at you. What say you all to this predicament?
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Jaron Bernstein
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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby Jaron Bernstein » Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:39 pm

Hmmm.... very good discussion.

Today we did rondels for class. I attacked Keith with big offensive stabs (literally running straight at him as he backpedeled) in the "offensive" method. And I got stuck a great many times as a direct result. A few times he got to my blind side with good footwork.

With a less mobile Rocky I was able to work the angles and use Meyer's footwork to get around him (Rocky is a big guy who pretty much stands still) for some good stabs at off angles.


1. If the other guy is less mobile, you can do footwork around him and maybe even make them nifty rondel things from the manual work.

2. If he is very mobile and has good footwork, how the hell do you close with him and get a good angle for those manual techniques without just rushing in or circling and "snipping"? From my experience today, a very aggressive offense (as opposed to the "dueling" circling and snipping) with Keith pretty much got stuck over 20 times and I got to return the favor a few times.

This isn't really persuading me of the merits of aggessively being offensive with the dagger.

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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby Zach Palfreyman » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:25 am

I was thinking, and I decided that my main problem with the idea of stabbing someone and backing off while they bleed to death is one thing. That is, when you start backing off, you loose the initiative, the Vor. This means that you're in the Nach for a while, reacting to whatever this guy might have left to throw at you. What say you all to this predicament?


The manuals say to keep the iniative. Don't they also say that nobody is invincible, that even a farmer could beat a master? A lethal hit is a lethal hit, you don't need four more just to make sure. When you hear about people getting stabbed 40 times, that is usually out of panic. You see, he iddn't just fall over dead like in the movies, so they keep stabbing until he does. How long did that take, perhaps long as it took him to bleed to death from the first lethal hit? Do you think they teach navy seals to stab a guy 40 times, or sneak up behind him and slit his throat?

A dagger just doesn't have the stopping power of a longsword. Sure, you could take a guy down one hit from a knife or dagger. You could also take someone down with one hit from your fist, but don't count on it. And nobody was saying to just stand there while the guy stabs you in the face. It was more like, once you have in a lethal hit, all your focus should be on not taking a lethal hit yourself. When you are good enough to jump in and stab a guy a dozen times without getting hurt, you won't be taking advice from anyone on dagger fighting.

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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby Stacy Clifford » Mon Jul 11, 2005 11:59 am

A dagger may not have the stopping power of a longsword, but as Jeanry said, Medieval daggers weren't your little three inch pocket knife. Some rondels were anywhere from 16 inches to more than two feet long, which could not only penetrate your front side, but possibly come out your back too on a hard hit. You get hit like that in a vital area, you're going to notice one way or another.
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JeffGentry
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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby JeffGentry » Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:02 pm

Hey Jaron

Doebringer

"And when the opponent is slow and late then you can remain on his sword and ringht away turn[wind] and note and feel[fulen] if the othe rgather's himself in order to move away or not."

I am pretty sure this applies to rondel as well as sword, once you have blocked[bind] then you can stay on it and feel[fulen] and get to the outside and fight your fight not his.


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Gene Tausk
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Re: Dagger Stabs

Postby Gene Tausk » Mon Jul 11, 2005 1:11 pm

Jay:

You wrote:

"I have studied about 10 sources for dagger techniques in depth and only one of them, Meyer, recommends body shifting as part of the defense, and even then Meyer only mentions it with one or two techniques. I think the medieval dagger defenses are designed for use in the worst case scenario, when your enemy is in the true place and you have no time to move out of the way and barely enough time to get your hands up to cover. "

Respectfully, I do not agree with this interpretation, but I am at work now with no manuals available. When I get a moment (and a manual or two) I will start another thread and hopefully we can get a good discussion going.

Very truly yours,


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