WMA group on YouTube

[Shane Smith]

Ask a man with a sword literally on his shoulder in vom tag to throw a zwerch to the opposite side

[JeffGentry]

Ask a man with a sword literally on his shoulder in vom tag to throw a zwerch to the opposite side

Shane

Play nice, LMAO.


Jeff

[philippewillaume]

I know that is your experience. However, as best that I am aware of, that is not the common experience within ARMA. Hands held in front of the body make nice easy targets. Cuts made from the low hand position are weak and short. In order to make longer more powerful cuts the hands must be raised, which extends the time frame of the cuts (ie. they're slower). As I said in earlier threads, I observed a large number of people who follow that interpretation at the WMAW 2006 Event and I was not impressed. I also think that, along with a number of other variables, the low hands Vom Tag plays a major role in the vast amount of edge hacking that I observed at that event.

Peace,

Hello Ran
I can not disagree with you on the edge hacking and problem you describe. You probably have seen as well people that left over their head or shoulder and get counter trusted as well. It is not because other people are using it to goof around it doe not necessary means that it is bad.

What I am trying to say is I totally agree with you on the points you make but I think it is “excessive” to say that it does not make sense to take it at the shoulder when they text says it does. (i.e. like the VD pics)

What I mean by at the shoulder is probably best demonstrated in

http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=30c36mu
Or
http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=343lmjn

As Jay mentioned, there is rising of the hands over the shoulder to deliver the cut, I never really though of mentioning it or pay that amount of attention to it. (Thanks jay)

But Shane answer made me realize something. My initial reasponse to him was alomgs teh line of realtively easy you take von tag at a distance where you can do it.
And it made me realize that possibly at distance where you usually take VD I will never be in VT on the shoulder either.

Phil

[Greg Coffman]

Those wasters your using look alot like shinai with larger guard added on. If so, how do those handle compared to a wooden waster? They seem to have a different feel compared to a wooden waster (I don't have any experience with either but, from watching numerous videos, it just looks like they do).

I was wondering about this myself. They seem to not hit too hard, which is good, but they also seem to be too light and fast. Then there is always the problem of edge alignment, but that is mostly an issue for beginners.

Ask a man with a sword literally on his shoulder in vom tag to throw a zwerch to the opposite side

That's easy. It's really not hard to do. Having the sword resting on the shoulder does not make it any different.

[Jay Vail]

Matt, there is also this from Lindholm's Ringeck:

To assume von tag "Stand with your left foot forward and hold your sword on your right side next to your shoulder. Or hold it with arms stretched above your head."

This passage clearly seems to prescribe a von tag or whatever you want to call it with the cross at least at shoulder level, which is where we tend to put it. Not below, as so many others seem to do.

Do you have a textual source for placement of the cross below the shoulder? I've been through my version of Fiore (the PD version) and I don't recall seeing a posture with the cross held below the shoulder. Did I miss it?

[philippewillaume]

Matt, there is also this from Lindholm's Ringeck:

To assume von tag "Stand with your left foot forward and hold your sword on your right side next to your shoulder. Or hold it with arms stretched above your head."

This passage clearly seems to prescribe a von tag or whatever you want to call it with the cross at least at shoulder level, which is where we tend to put it. Not below, as so many others seem to do.

Do you have a textual source for placement of the cross below the shoulder? I've been through my version of Fiore (the PD version) and I don't recall seeing a posture with the cross held below the shoulder. Did I miss it?

Hello jay.
I would say, you give the example yourself.

Stating that ringeck or VD text clearly indicates that he hilt should be no lower that the shoulder is not quite correct and impose a restriction that is not there in the original text.

If they meant the hilt at the shoulder they would have said the hilt not the sword.
“an” does not have the same meaning as “uber” nor has it the same meaning as “uff” (even though it is used with the dative which indicates a location if that is a valid rule in medieval German)
So the text does not say above or resting on the shoulder it say with the sword in the close vicinity of the shoulder (in English=hold the sword on/at your shoulder, i.e. hold the sword where the shoulder is).
Near is good enough in English but the medieval German is more precise
There is no idea of having the sword resting (as in being supported) there or being tucked there either. It is just the place where the sword is held not the place where the sword is laying.

Here is what ringeck says
Die vierd hu°tt.
Vom tag. Do schick dich also mit: stand mit linckem fu°ß vor, vnd halt din schwert an diner rechten achseln. Oder halt es mit vßgerechten armen vber din haup. Vnd wie dü vß der hutten fechten solt, das findest dü in dissem bu°ch geschryben.

Here is what VD says
Merck die hůtt haist vom tag / do schick dich also mit / Stee mit dem lincken füeß vor / und halt dein swert an deiner rechten achsel oder mit auff gerackten armen hoch über dein haubt / und stee also in der hůt
And that his the drawing that comes with it.
http://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Bild:MS_44_A_8_2r.jpg

I think you were spot on when you talked about Hasso no kamae.(all the different way it is taken). Ringeck and VD do not give presicsion as to where the hilt is compared to th shoulder because it is all the same to them.
As you said you will have to lift you hands to strike which ever hasso you take.

Otherwise Kal, Von Speyer, Meyer, Sutor and Lew (or thalhoffer for that matter) just have the above the head version they do not mention the at the shoulder.
Von tag = jodan no kame only