Fighting with two swords?

[J. F. McBrayer]

The Order of the Seven Hearts contradicts the ARMA on the cutting with rapiers issue, and dissagree with us on the validity of those techniques
be aware of that.

ARMA is using a different definition of rapier than the Order of the Seven Hearts, one that excludes the weapons taught by the Italian "rapier" masters that Seven Hearts teaches. Mentally substitute "Renaissance cut and thrust sword" whenever a Seven Hearts writer writes "rapier," and substitute "rapier" whenever one of them writes "baroque rapier," and you will be perfectly comfortable.

Since we're discussing Manciolino here, and no one disagrees that Manciolino's sword is a sword, the issue shouldn't even arise. Unless someone wants to classify Manciolino's sword as a rapier so that his two swords chapter falls into the "case of rapiers" exception...but then you'll have to explain why he tells you to cut with them.

[Allen Johnson]

That's right.
Usually the base of most of these rapier cutting debates is semantics. We are forced to categorize weapons that were not separated by specific names, but rather, what they did. Obviously 'rapiers' present in Marozzo and others like him are very capable of cuts. Ones used by Capo Ferro much less so.

However there are still many out there who are using slender thrusting blades to hack and slash. Those should be easy to spot and promptly ignored.


As well as those that advocate rapier parries that take the defenders point off line like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wGTqC0E0Es

[Nathan Dexter]

yeah, you can learn a lot from other organizations, even if they contradict you, I think its kinda cool that they focus on one type of thing.
(however, I need a more broad focus )

[Axel Pettersson]

yeah, you can learn a lot from other organizations, even if they contradict you, I think its kinda cool that they focus on one type of thing.
(however, I need a more broad focus )

I hear you, Im like a kid in a candy shop when it comes to WMA (only time and avaliable training partners limits me to mostly ringecks longsword, Ringen and german dagger), latest project is Swedish military sabre, stay tuned

[Nathan Dexter]

Ooooo... sounds fun.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Yes, I haven't learned the subtleties of the Bolognese school, so it's no wonder that I get confused form time to time. His instructions once the two swordsmen have come into an engagement are actually quite clear and I managed to do them quite well (I think) in half-speed work, but I don't really get the purpose of moving the swords around in the three approach paces.

[kenneth house]

I have no doubts that the kaskara was used as a battlefield weapon, since I've seen several mentions of it both in translated snippets from African chronicles and in secondary sources. What I was asking is that was the two-sword style ever used on the battlefield with the kaskara? In the absence of documentary evidence I'd assume that it wasn't, although I have no doubts as to its potential usefulness in duels and choreographed performances.

I misunderstood. That is a very interesting question which I hope to have an answer for...

[Mars Healey]

I've read most of this thread, so please don't zwerchhau me for being a filthy skimmer, but have you seen this article on using two swords?

Manciolino's double-sword plays

[LafayetteCCurtis]

I misunderstood. That is a very interesting question which I hope to have an answer for...

Well, I won't mind even if you don't since I admit that the question itself is already veering a little off topic. In any case, could you offer use some observations on the methods of using two kaskaras in single combat?

I've read most of this thread, so please don't zwerchhau me for being a filthy skimmer, but have you seen this article on using two swords?

Er...that's a link that has cropped up at least three times during the course of this thread.

[Allen Johnson]

Here's a thought I had this morning on the cutting rapiers issue.
Even without knowing what type of sword is being used by a particular rapier master, we can tell if it's a thrusting one or a cutting one by looking at the guards.
Look at your basic guards from Capo Ferro and Fabris. You can not cut from Prima, Seconda, Terza and Quarta. If you are in prima, in order to cut, you have to pull your arm back either at the elbow or shoulder to generate the power and motion needed for a cut. Thus it is not a cut from prima. You are cutting from a different position.
Let's look at longsword Ochs. You really can't cut from here. In order to cut you have to move your sword to or through Vom Tag or another guard in order to cut. Same thing with rapier. This motion of moving from one guard to another in order to attack is not as efficient as attacking from the second position in the first place. With rapier being as fast as it is the guards are designed to be as efficient as possible.
With the true rapier all the guards mentioned above, favor a thrusting rather than cutting attack.
Now you look at Marozzo and notice that he has some other guards that favor a cut- such as guardia alta, which is basically a vom tag. You can cut directly from that position. He also has the guards similar to pflug/terza to use the thrusting strengths of his weapon.
So in summary, the nature of the guards themselves let us know what kind of sword is being used even if we don’t have a description of the weapon it self.

[Mars Healey]

Er...that's a link that has cropped up at least three times during the course of this thread.

Gaak! Sorry.

[Jean Culassec]

Allen, that's an interesting way to look at it, but I'm afraid you are leaving out a lot of factors.

First of all, you can very much cut from prime, seconde, tierce and quarte. I'm no expert, but I have friends who practice Agrippa, and they do so all the time, as their master shows in his book. Especially from prime, you can cut very powerfull blows, as any sabreur can show you.

Then, these four guard positions are the exact same (apart Agrippa) as the similar positions in mid-1500 manuels like Sainct Didier, Meyer and Viggiani. You don't need to be in open ward to cut.

Jean

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Well, you can't deliver straight-armed severing cuts from those guards, but they still allow you to cut from the wrist or the elbow. The resulting wounds wouldn't be lethal, but they may be enough to take your enemy aout of the fight if you slice open an important muscle or tendon. And a blow to the head, even if it won't break the skull, can cause considerable concussion. Not to mention that a broken scalp bleeds a lot and blood will hurt when it gets into your eyes.

And even the edgeless smallsword could break the scalp. It's not a matter of the sword--the scalp itself is also a rather delicate area that gets damaged easily.

[Jean Culassec]

The standard kendo guard also resembles a tierce, and you can give some pretty mean cuts in kendo. I'm confused.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

And kendo is a sport, not a martial art. The kenjutsu schools would have been somewhat more relevant to the topic, especially since the katana occupied a roughly similar niche as the rapier--as an urban dueling sword for use against unarmored opponents--at least from the 17th century onwards.