Blows against the rapier:

[ksiajdn]

Greetings everyone.

I've been reading Pallas Armata and I've found it a very nice guide for rapier training, but I feel kinda uncorfortable without proper directions on how to peform against a sword blow using the rapier. Is there any kind of contratempo you can use? Is it possible to parere the blow with the Secunde part of the rapier? Or it is the best to dodge it? Thank you in advance!

[Casper Bradak]

For me, the easiest methods of fighting a cutting blade with a rapier seem to be, maintain your measure or range, deny him a bind, and use quite a bit of disengages, voids and thrusts. It should be a very difficult fight for the opponent.
There is also less need to stringer an opponent who is using a cutting sword.
If he does close, defend with your strong, but don't worry about your edge as much as you would with a sword. Try to regain your measure, but don't forget your grips or your hilt.

[Steven Engelbach]

In a word, no to parrying with the second part of the rapier (at least according to Pallas Armata, Fabris, and all the other Italian maestri of Rapier).

However, there are certainly parries that you can make. Here are a few scenarios to give you an idea:

1. Your opponent attacks with a diagonal cut to the left side of your head. In this case, you make a parry with your hand in Quarta, catching your opponent's blade on your hilt, while at the same time thrusting (this is especially effective with a pass). An example of this can be seen in plate 38 in Fabris.

2. You opponent attacks with a diagonal cut to the right side of your head. This is the same as technique number 1 except that you parry with your hand in Seconda. Plate 27 in Fabris shows an example of this (although in this plate, the cut has not even arrived before the attacker is hit with the thrust).

I hope this helps.

Steve

[ksiajdn]

Thank you very much for pointing those examples! But there's just one doubt of mine I would like to expose: the parry must be made directly with the hilt (contact/shock with the attacker's blade) or you must use the Prime part of the rapier to slide the attacker's blade into the hilt? Forgive my poor english, I hope my question is understandable. Once again, thank you in advance!

[Steven Engelbach]

The forte right near the hilt works, too (your opponent's blade will tend to slide toward your hilt). Note, that once you have your point on/in your opponent, your entire blade is forte, as it is supported at both ends--i.e. one end it is supported by your hand, the other by being in your opponent's body.

Fabris actually divides the blade into 4 parts (part 1 is nearest the hilt). He would say that you generally parry cuts with the 4th part, unless your point is in your opponent, in which case it doesn't matter.

Steve

[James_Knowles]

the parry must be made directly with the hilt

I'm not really experienced with the rapier, but why not traverse and take the blow on the strong at an acute angle? The blow will be deflected towards the hilt, keeping the point ready to thrust. Use the opposing blade's momentum to your advantage.

Just thinking OTTOMH. Mental discretion required. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Steven Engelbach]

That would work, although I think your risposte/counter-attack will have a better chance of success if you do it within the tempo of your opponent's attack. As he raises his blade offline for the cut, you thrust. Thus, his cut falls on your hilt (or on your forte, sliding to your hilt).

Some other possibilities along the lines of your suggestion (i.e. voiding):

You could also withdraw just out of range, then immediately thrust before he can raise his blade (Fabris Plates 28 &amp; 29). However, if he is foolish enough to make an attack at your leg, just pull it back and make a thrust to his chest, a cut to his head or a cut to his forearm (Alfieri Plate XI from book 2).

Steve

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Steven,

do you have a translation you are working from for both Alferi and Fabris? Or do you just read Italian really well? The reason that I ask is that I didn't think there were any translations availible for either manual. I know Tom Leoni has a translation of Fabris coming out in the near future for Chivalry bookshelf, but is there a translation availible elsewhere?

Thanks.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Steven Engelbach]

Brian,

I read Italian fairly well (albeit, with a vocabulary heavily slanted towards fencing).

You can find a few pieces of Alfieri translated (all from book 2--the tactical techniques), but I don't know of any available translation of book 1 (the theory).

The only other translations of Italian 17th century rapier texts available that I know of are the two Capoferro translations: the free version from Tattershall and the translation from Jared Kirby. Unfortunately, the second one is quite hard to understand unless (ironically) you read Italian, as the translation is (IMHO) too literal and retains too many Italian terms.

I've heard rumors that a Giganti translation is in the works by one of the Tattershall guys (but given how fast stuff gets published in this field, who knows when it will be available).

Steve

[Brian Hunt]

Thanks Steve,

that is what I thought. Thanks for the responce. I am about 3/4's of the way through a translation of Alferi's book 2, but I have been bogged down in other projects. I don't read Italian well enough, without dictionaries, to just work directly from the text yet. I have been concentrating on Latin and German lately, and other projects have made this one take a back door. I am looking forward to Fabris, everything I have heard is that his is a fine book, and the clearest of all the Italian rapier fencing texts. I have both copies of the Capo Ferro translations you mentioned, and I find refering back and forth between the two, plus going back to the original Italian, with dictionary in hand, helps me get a much clearer understanding of this manual.

Thanks again.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Steven Engelbach]

I think that the Fabris manual is by far the best Rapier manual out there (qualifying that by admitting to having never read any of the Spanish manuals). None of the others (Alfieri, Capoferro, Giganti, et. al.) even come close to explaining things as clearly or completely--and Fabris' book two (attacking your opponent without stopping [in guard]) is amazing.

Steve

[Stacy Clifford]

OK, here's a question to add fuel to the fire: If you are the one attacking a rapier with a cut and thrust (single handed with no offhand weapon), is it a fatal mistake NOT to engage the rapier's blade when making an attack?

My opinion: in most cases yes. In my sparring matches with JC like this (few and far between, but very educational), my best successes (rare, but savored) came when I could keep the rapier busy defending long enough to create an opening by either getting it too far offline to counterthrust or getting in position to grab it. A furious attack with half-arm and wrist cuts in front of the body can fluster a rapier's defense, but as long as it's still pointing at you, the only reachable target is the weapon arm.

(This is a really challenging fight by the way, and really forces you to think. Lots of fun.)

[Casper Bradak]

Yes. Just as when using matched weapons, like longsword vs longsword, and you are in pflug, with your point well aimed at your opponents chest, and he decides to cut widely around your point, you can stop him with a thrust.
This is x10 when a rapier is involved with its point dancing around waiting for your weapon to move off line and leave the smallest opening. It almost forces you to use a dissimilar weapon in the manner of a rapier until you can work in its other advantages.

[ksiajdn]

Ah that's interesting! By the way, I know our main information comes from Italian schools, but is there any source for Spanish rapier around? I've read Comprehension de la Destreza, but I was looking forward for something more pratical than theorical. Spanish rapier fencing is very ''obscure'', some claim that it's artificial and unrealistic while others say that it is flexible and extremelly dangerous.

[John_Clements]

You can always try to quickly step in against the cut and close by receiving the blow near your hilt while quickly turning your point high and down to thrust at them. Use your second hand to seize their arm or hilt or blade in the process. Step diagonally as necessary to avoid the inertia of the cut.

JC