Armour and Protection

[BrianGossard]

Hi
I hope this is the right place to ask this stuff. I play quite alot of games ( PC / boardgame/RPG ), am also a fan of my medieval history and I'm trying to find out about the actually effectiveness of medieval armour ( if Films and TV are to be believed armour was next to useless as even the feeblest of blows seemed to kill a man outright !). The seems to be a hugh amount of contradictory / uncertain information around about it. I've spent a few days digging around and it's been very difficult to find any reliable books / web sites. I've come across quite afew types the I've never heard of ( such as Lamellar, Brigand(t)ine, Cuir Bolli etc.. as well as hugh debates about Mail armour, although I did find one fairly well put together article that pointed me towards this site ( it referenced as a good place to do research saying that actually testing was done on replicated armour ).
How well would Leather, Cuir Bolli, Quilted/Padded, Scale, Mail, Brigandine, Lamellar, Plate each stand up to to the different types Cutting, Puncturing and Blunt Impact blows ?

[Brian Hunt]

this is a quick reply, I will respond in more detail later.

Armour was worn because armour worked. It protected you from strikes and blows, therefore when fighting against a man in armour you must strike for the weak places in the armour, at the joints, up from below to the groin, etc. If you are using a two-handed sword this was often accomplished by shortening the sword, or in other words fighting with one hand on the middle of your blade and the other on your hilt to improve leverage and thrusting at the various weak points. Plate armour is of course stronger than mail, but that gets into a much more involved answer.

hope this start helps you out.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Shane Smith]

We in VAB have defeated modern rivited maille from the halfsword thrust with My DelTin hand and a half sword. I have also punctured an 18gauge berbute helm from the same. I have NOT been able to pierce good solid-link/welded maille with any sword nor have I seen it done. I have cut against riveted, butted and solid-linked maille(thanks George T) Only the butted was defeated by a cut from a warsword.

I have never cut a helm successfully with a sword and I have seen a heavy halberd fail that too in Matt Andersons hands. More likely is a dented helm.

Gambesons are very good protection aganst a cut as well. Here is a brief essay on armoured fighting with some photo's of us taking my sword to armour while we ourselves are in armour; http://www.thearma.org/essays/armoredlongsword.html

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[JeanryChandler]

We in VAB have defeated modern rivited maille from the halfsword thrust with My DelTin hand and a half sword. I have also punctured an 18gauge berbute helm from the same. I have NOT been able to pierce good solid-link/welded maille with any sword nor have I seen it done. I have cut against riveted, butted and solid-linked maille(thanks George T) Only the butted was defeated by a cut from a warsword.

How common was solid link-welded mail in period? In the Renaissance in Europe? How common was it compared to riveted mail, when did it appear etc. Does anyone know?

Jr

[Casper Bradak]

I have to add, that modern riveted stuff, at least the commonly available stuff, in my experience, really sucks compared to any antique stuff I have seen. With the modern stuff, it'll keep it from falling apart by itself for the most part, but you can tell by looking at it that you'd not want to get stabbed at in it.
The antique stuff, on the other hand, at least every peice I've seen, was very solid and high quality looking, even the excavated ones, and I'd wager it'd be at least a lot, lot harder to penetrate. Some of the later ones at least, were also a tighter weave in the "open" and vital areas, depending on how it was worn.

I have cut against riveted, butted and solid-linked maille(thanks George T) Only the butted was defeated by a cut from a warsword.

By defeated, do you mean ruined? Were you actually able to produce a cut to the material underneath? In my experience with the same, blows generally "tear" butted mail apart, but don't actually "defeat" it. That having more to do with the wire than how it is joined. It won't protect the same spot twice, but I've never actually penetrated it with a blow.

(For Jeanry) Granted I haven't seen much, but I think solid stuff was very much a minority, and then it was usually alternated with riveted links. I'm not sure when it began use, but it could've been any time as the alternate solid links were punched from a sheet, not wire, for the most part. But, I doubt it was much of an issue, as the antique mail I've seen of the common riveted variety looked as if it would be just as strong, and the quality replica mail I've seen attacked held up flawlessly to anything.

[Shane Smith]

The butted maille was ripped open by the swords passing.