Dagger Stabs

[Matt_Bruskotter]

I had a pretty easy question. I'm assuming some of you military guys can answer this due to your bayonet training. When using a dagger or rondel, when you stab should it be more of a "punch?" That is, should it be a quick jab in and out to disallow the opponent to grab onto your wrist or arm? Or should it be more of driving stab so that you are sure that you have penetrated your opponent?

I know both should be done with as much quickness and force as possible, but I was just curious if you should quickly withdraw the dagger after you stab so that you can get multiple stabs in or should you attempt to use only one stab and fully commit to it. Thanks!

[JeffGentry]

hey Matt

If someone is wearing a gambeson(flak jacket) or any heavy clothing that is usualy worn in combat now or then, you need to put some power behind it to penetrate the outer heavy clothing layer.

Also once the blade enter's the body you now have them attached to a handle and can pull forward or push back on it to drag them around and also do further damage.

I am all for full power, kill them in the least amount of time possible with minimumal effort.


Jeff

[Matt_Bruskotter]

Yeah, I agree. I noticed Jaron likes to stab like a boxer and I wasn't sure if that was how you do it. He was the only experienced one I sparred with. I think you had a busted thumb that day.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Matt

Pinky finger and I am on him all the time to stop playing the tag game with a dagger, I hate it when he does that, when that happen's you will get hit at some point there is not much you can do except try not to get hit and keeping going in and hope it is not to a vital organ and kill the opponent, Also IMO if someone is going to stab you in a rage it will be a committed stab full force.

I showed some of the video of dagger to David Kite and he commented on that too you could hear me telling people to stop messing around and strike with intent.


Jeff

[Matt_Bruskotter]

It's really easy to get in the "tag game" with any kind of sparring. I think it gets like that with the padded long swords too. I absolutely hate double deaths as well. It turns into dumb arguments. Then again, if I was any good, I wouldn't get into a double death situation. But I agree about hating the tag game. I always end up getting sucked into it. I'll work on stabbing with force then instead of quick jabs.

The problem with quick jabs is that you cannot be entirely sure if you stabbed someone enough to cause serious injury or death. YOu may only cause a flesh wound thus giving the man who was just barely stabbed a chance to really stab you! The rib cage is another problem with jabs. A quick jab will not penetrate the ribs. I always imagined it as a forceful strike and if you accidentally hit a rib, then you'd have to dig for an opening between ribs. I'd assume this could only be accomplished but strong and quick strikes. Not just quick ones.

[Zach Palfreyman]

Even if you stab someone really hard right in the heart, they will not just fall over dead. They might bleed to death or get an infection and die later. If you deliver a really tramatic wound, then they might go into shock and pass out, but don't count on it. If you get in a good shot, I think your best off just backing up and get defensive. They'll either leave to get treated, or you just keep them at a distance until they are too weak to fight. Stab wounds are not that uncommon, if you look around I'm sure you could find some good info on it.

[JeffGentry]

hey Zack

If you get in a good shot, I think your best off just backing up and get defensive. They'll either leave to get treated, or you just keep them at a distance until they are too weak to fight.

that is why you have to stab with intent in sparring so you know it was a good deep shot and did penetrate.


Jeff

[Derek Gulas]

Hello Matt,

I'm not the most experienced dagger-fighter around here, but I always thought it was most logical to strike with speed and power. After all, the Masters admonish us to fence with all our strength. I also tend to use passing footwork, just as with the longsword, with my dagger play. This will add power to you strikes by their very nature. The Masters don't say this directly anywhere that I know of, but it seemed logical to me to use the same footwork. Along with striking hard I stike often. I usually trap an arm and strike my opponent repeately wherever I can, such as the base of the neck or the side.

By the way, my practice daggers are just 1" dowels cut to the appropriate length, with high-impact foam tips attached with duct tape. I find these work well for both drills and sparring, with minimal safety gear (safety glasses).

[Derek Gulas]

Zach, you said:

"If you get in a good shot, I think your best off just backing up and get defensive."

Why not just hold onto them and keep stabbing until they fall over? Or I should say, would fall over?

[Shane Smith]

If he's in your range, you're in his.If I've stuck him good, I'm flying out of range. I think it risky to trade close blows in a bladed weapon fight for the most part.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Shane

If he's in your range, you're in his.If I've stuck him good, I'm flying out of range. I think it risky to trade close blows in a bladed weapon fight for the most part.

I totaly agree, That is why you need to use power and speed so you are sure it was a good deep strike trying to reach internal organ's, i agree though get in make a could deep stab and get out fast.

Stabbing him in the bicep will have some effect sooner or later, Going through the bicep and catching a lung will have effect sooner rather than later, so you need a powerful strike to get in deep were the vital organ's are 3-4 inch's isn't much on an imobile non resisting target, on a moving fighting target it is another matter entirely.


Jeff

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Yep, good question and I agree with the majority on this one. Stab him good with force then back out let nature take it's course.

The last satbbing death we had was a guy who was in a fight with a group. He was stabbed twice in the chest area, one fatal wound through a lung and into one of the major arteries running to the heart. He did not die right away but had time to run about a block away hide behind a car and then passed away after an unknown amount of time.

He could have used that energy to counter attack but I wonder if that would have caused him to have died sooner.

Anyway, historically if you add the gambeson and maybe some leather or mail- it had better be a concerted effort or forget it. I recently picked up a historical cotton gambeson and wow! That puppy is tough- man that is some protection, quick slices would do nothing and quick jabs I have doubts about as well-

The quick jab can be a bothersome technique though, I talk to my folks about working to deal/defeat it instead of discounting it as an effective attack, because let's face it that kind of attack is difficult to deal with, you have got to form some kind of plan and stick to it- Aaron

[Derek Gulas]

I understand what all of you guys are saying, and you are all quite credible sources <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> But, as in the case with the man who bled to death, they will have time to move and fight even as they are dying (instead of running away). That means that they could still possibly attack and kill you even as they are mortally wounded. I guess what I'm asking is, wouldn't it be better to expend energy on a blow(s) that will kill outright, instead of settling on wounding an opponent who could still hurt you? Also, if the weapon hand has already been controlled by you, wouldn't it be relatively safe to continue making strong attacks until they fall over? You know, just to make sure <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Zach Palfreyman]

The point is they are never going to just fall over. If you take enough trauma, then you could pass out. That doesn't happen too much with knife wounds. One hit to the lung is just as lethal as three. If you keep fighting him, those extra wounds won't make him bleed out much faster anyway... adrenaline helps you from bleeding to death so fast, and its especially effective with stab wounds. If you got in one or two good hits and still got ahold of his weapon, then you should be disarming him anyway. The reason people are saying back off is because, yeah, he can still get in a hit that would kill you... and you want to avoid that. If you must kill, then you slit his throat, simple as that.

Also keep in mind that your goals are different on the medieval battlefield and, say defending yourself in some back alley.

[KatherineJohnson]

I have not sparred with daggers in quite a long time but I used to do it frequently, generally we would fight with commited forceful blows. I found that often the techniques from the manuals that we had used would often come into play and one of us would wind up with our weaponhand tied up or immobilized and the other would make 3-4 forceful stabs at whatever target area was available. (Often the base of the neck) while maintaining control of the other persons weapon. I think in situations like this it would be easy to throw your opponent on the ground to make sure and finish the job while they're even more imobile.