ARMA Östersund Videos

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M Wallgren
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ARMA Östersund Videos

Postby M Wallgren » Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:10 am

Tvo short clips from ARMA Östersund showing some Hans Talhoffer halfswording. Download here http://arma.se/video.html ... the two on the bottom...

Ciao...

Martin
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JeffGentry
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Re: ARMA Östersund Videos

Postby JeffGentry » Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:13 am

Hey Martin

I like the look on the guy's face in Bryter Draparslaget, as you go to throw him.

I love the way people go flying when you hook and throw them with the sword.

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Re: ARMA Östersund Videos

Postby Matthew_Anderson » Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:36 pm

I couldn't get the last link to work but the one before that looks nice, good foot position for the tip throw.
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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: ARMA Östersund Videos

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:55 pm

Okay... Martin, I really like the counter to the Mortschlag. That one is mor eor less in line with Talhoffer. But the other one -could you please be so kind to share the reasoning behind the interpretation (and the way your partner executes his attack)? It is based on the 1467 Ed. Plate 40, right?

I have more comments concerning the presented material but it's 04:55 in the morning and I'm tired so.... later.
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Re: ARMA Östersund Videos

Postby M Wallgren » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:03 am

Well Jocke... That could be done but It could also spoil a little bit of the fun intended to land in the lap of all good ARMAteers and fellow swordsmen later this year...

Just kidding!!

It begins with an instance where the combatants have closed in and are in Brentschirn (plate 39:TH1467)as Talhoffer calls the binding in halfsword according to our and Mark rectors interpretation.

The fighter who is in this clip Kim opens with a paddling move in order to break away the point of the fighter who is Me (Martin) in the clip.

If this would succeed you would en up in a position like on plate 48:TH1467, alas for Kim I indes do a Nachreisen shown on the plate 41:TH1467 and proceed through plate 54:TH1467.

Let us stop here and concider the choises I´ve got here. As we in Östersund has interpreted this I could do tre different endings to here and one is shown on plate 40:TH1467 and this is what I do in the clip.

I could also as people have commentented (Joachim and Jeanry)thrust him in the lower blossen and I would acctually do that if it was real combat but as for the sake of training and lack of protection we have not done this too many times in training (though Kim can tell you how unpleasant this is).

In addition to the stab in the guts you could proceed into the throw that the clip is showing.

Also an alternativ to this is to break the balance of Kim the other way (In my view Right), take his sword with the weak part (in kurtzeswerten not that weak) of my sword and swiftly lift it up and over his head hooking his head with my sword and throw him on the ground face down. I have accomlished this in sparring with waisters more than once.

The last end is not based on plate 40:TH1467 but rather directly from plate 57:TH1467. Please try them at home and tell me what your thoughts are...

All the best...

Martin
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M Wallgren
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Re: ARMA Östersund Videos

Postby M Wallgren » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:31 am

Just for the record... Thats guy´s name is Kim (tough little bastard)and let it be known that he is my Right hand in all... and Bryter Dråparslaget is the Swedish translation of Breaking the Murderstroke... HEHEHE!!!

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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: ARMA Östersund Videos

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:14 am

Okay. A number of things:

The fighter who is in this clip Kim opens with a paddling move in order to break away the point of the fighter who is Me (Martin) in the clip.


IMO, Kim doesn't really move your point sufficiently off-line to warrant an attack. The way it looks now he simply disengages and moves in with the pommel. Highly dangerous on his part since he hasn't moved your point off-line, nor does he maintain any control of your blade.

If this would succeed you would en up in a position like on plate 48:TH1467, alas for Kim I indes do a Nachreisen shown on the plate 40:TH1467 and proceed through plate 54:TH1467.


This is what is hardest for me to swallow personally. To be blunt: You could simply go from plate 48 directly to plate 54. As per our original interpretation. Plate 40, even being a separate technique, needent be there at all.

A small comment on plate 48: Mikael and I have re-evaluated our interpretation of this one, Martin. We are currently leaning towards an interpretation where the right fighter reacts to an attempted sword entaglement from the left fighter -as opposed to the right fighter instigating the whole thing. That helps to explain the swords relative positions among other things.

Plate 40: This is where a multitude of problems arise (in regards to the videoclip). In Alte Armatur und Ringkunst Talhoffer calls it a schwertnemen. Which is exactly what it is actually. Take a close look at plate 40 and you will quickly notice that both fighters are in stances with their left legs leading. Also, note that the position of your hands does not match the positions of the hands of the left fighter in plate 40. He has got one hand facing inwards and one hand facing outwards. Not a position you would end up in if simply transitioning from Brentschiren.

I think me and Mikael have finally figured this one out. We could videotape it and post it if you like.

Plate 54: Just some minor comments. In Alte Armatur und Ringkunst Talhoffer calls this the Gurgelstich, and aims it at one of the upper Blossen. Granted, that fighter executes his Stich from an almost countered Mortschlag, but the general principle is the same. But upper or lower Blossen both work fine though, even though the fighter in the 1467 Ed also hits one of the upper Blossen. You are perfectly correct in using it as a counter against the "throat hooking takedown" though. This is how you and I have interpreted and trained it from the get go after all.

Never the less: Keep up the great work and stay focused. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Joachim Nilsson
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Re: ARMA Östersund Videos

Postby Joachim Nilsson » Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:33 am

One more "minor" thing regarding the last plate: Don't forget to reverse your grip. This sets you up for a really powerful thrust (or a Mortschlag in case the enemy retreats or gets into any of the other shenanigans enemies usually get themselves into).
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