More intent in sparring!

[M Wallgren]

Is there someone who has a idea on how to get a more leathal feeling in some of the sparringbouts? Sometimes lot´s of sparring can give you a somewhat underestemated attitude against the leathality of real fighting. In real fighting I imagine that the adrenaline and fear is a factor not to wave away.

How do you guys do??

Martin

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

...If I may answer you question,

start making pushups!
Everyone who loses instantly has to make, say, ten pushups, all counted and legal. After 3 bouts, nobody will wish to loose. They will think through every move and will not make foolhardy things that can get them 'killed'.

byez,

Szab

[Allen Johnson]

When talking about this the safety issue always comes up. Bottom line is never lose control. There was some discussion sometime back (possibly on an e-list?) about sparring at full speed but not full force. How its possible to strike very quickly but not strike hard. Other than than and try to maintain a mindset that this "would" be lethal, there dosent seem to be a whole lot that can really be physically done.

[TimSheetz]

YES.

This is also a good thing to do if you start getting a lot of double-kills.

I sometimes have made everyone pause and concentrate. "Imagine that this is steel. It will part your flesh with great ease and leave you bloody and quickly expiring or in freakish, agonizing misery." I have occaisionally used different examples, graphically describing the sword's affect on a target. It helps folks focus when they are getting complacent.

Tim

[Joachim Nilsson]

Szabolics wrote:

start making pushups!

Yes, I agree. This is exactly how we used to punish double hits. IMHO, it's quite effective and might work in this instance too.

Tim wrote:

I sometimes have made everyone pause and concentrate. "Imagine that this is steel. It will part your flesh with great ease and leave you bloody and quickly expiring or in freakish, agonizing misery." I have occaisionally used different examples, graphically describing the sword's affect on a target. It helps folks focus when they are getting complacent.

Martin wrote:

In real fighting I imagine that the adrenaline and fear is a factor not to wave away.

I fully agree to what you both have just stated. Martin, what you need to do is to get a sharp and do some test-cutting with your guys. Then they will quickly realize just how devastating different attacks can be. Also: study concerning the archaeological battle-related finds from such sites as Uppsala, Visby and Towton. Then mentally picture the more bloody battle-scenes from, for instance, Braveheart and you will be well on your way to achieve that sense of respect that is needed for lethal implements.

On a more general note: I usually tap into old feelings from real life confrontations I have had and use that when I spar. This helps the "this is for real mindset". When I don't do that -that is when I usually don't do too well in sparring.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Martin

Is there someone who has a idea on how to get a more leathal feeling in some of the sparringbouts?

Well you could alway's go no rule's, no stopping, until some is unconcious or "tapp's" out(a "referee" stop's it because someone is no longer defending themselve's).

The problem i see is because we take safety into consideration and "Don't want to hurt someone" it remove's the adrenaline dump by not allowing us to go to the point where the fight or flight respose kick's in by virtue of the fact we know it is not real and we will only get hit once or twice and they aren't trying to realy hurt each other.

If we go all out from the start and do it until the other guy is out cold or "tapp's" or a referee stop's it, it would be much more realistic.

This is MO.

On another note IMO sparring is supposed to be a learning and perfecting enviroment with a resistant and uncooperative partner, so it should not be "realistic", I white water kayak and didn't learn to self rescue,eskimo roll, in a class 5 rapid i learned it in a nice warm calm pool until i could do it with out thinking then went to the river and re-learned how to do in the chaos of a rapid and wasn't able to the 1-2 time's, to me sparring is the warm safe pool.

Jeff

[Gene Tausk]

I guess I don't understand the question (which would not be unusual for me <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" /> )

When sparring, I never try to get hit. From what I have noticed, none of my sparring partners want to get hit either.

I know I always keep in mind that sparring is not the same as fighting with real weapons for your life, but the skills that are developed in sparring can certainly be applied to fighting with real weapons (which is why we do it).

Do you mean that the people you spar with don't take it seriously? Pound them a few times going full-contact with a correctly made contact weapon. That should get their attention! If that doesn't work, invite Jake or Tim over to do some sparring with them. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

As for the pushup idea, I am against this because I think the only thing this does is tire the person out and teach him to do pushups. I don't really see pushups as a disincentive. I certainly see getting a bruse as a disincentive to getting hit, however.

As I said, maybe I just don't understand the question.


----------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[Mike Cartier]

I agree with Gene on this, Pushups are not much of an incentive. Power is a better incentive.

When I take a clean hit to an unprotected area i usuall end up with a bump on my bone for a few weeks after that I feel in every class i do during that time. Strong incentive to hustl;e when you spar.

Sparring is indeed not fighting, not with weapons and not during unarmed sparring. Its merely another tool that helps us learn not an emulation of combat. Closest thing we have but still not fighting.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

I think I can speak for all the members of ARMA-Appleton, when I say that none of us want to be hit either. We tend to hit full-power and speed quite often. We understand the fact that this will lead to injuries, but it also takes all the distortion and "thinking" out of an art that is supposed to function on instinctive split second decisions.

Granted there is a time and place for us to think through stuff, but nothing compares or prepares you both in spirit and mind like a full-power strike- you know full well that this not a game after that kind of strike- and it's also hard to do push-ups when you can no longer feel your hand because all the nerves are on fire from a hit- just our way- probably not the best, but very effective.- Aaron

[Doug Marnick]

Great thread.
In the few times I sparred, I had to wrap my mentality around the concept, "This person is trying to kill me." I found I was much more lively in my bouts.
I not only disagree with the push up idea, but I also disagree with Jeff's concept of not stopping until a predetermined moment.
I recently wrote to Bart of ARMA Poland about this. Some of the sparring videos on his site somewaht demonstrate this idea of two combatants making successful hits but continuing to struggle, charge, attack, defend, grapple, etc. I hope he doesn't mind my reiteration in this forum, but he says in ARMA Poland they do both kinds of sparring. "Spar to the first hit" or "spar for a set period of time." He adds the disclaimer that both have their "merits and drawbacks".
Although there may be benefits to such a system, I don't know if it helps increase the intent or "reality" of a combat. Imagine a solid zornhau to the opponent's head and he ignores it and keeps coming at you. IMHO, this would create too many double kills and detract from the "success" of a properly executed strike.
Back to the original question, I say remember that the person you face is trying to kill you. You lose-you die.

[Joachim Nilsson]

Gene wrote:

I guess I don't understand the question (which would not be unusual for me <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" /> )

Do you mean that the people you spar with don't take it seriously? Pound them a few times going full-contact with a correctly made contact weapon. That should get their attention! If that doesn't work, invite Jake or Tim over to do some sparring with them. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Martin is just searching for ways to make his new guys fully realize just how lethal and harmful a "live" blade is. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> They do take it seriously, but they don't fully realize all the consequenses of getting cut, sliced etc by sharp steel.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Doug

I also disagree with Jeff's concept of not stopping until a predetermined moment.

Not real sure what "predetermined moment" you disagree with, it is usualy a safe bet if the guy's not moving he is either dead or unconcious and is no longer much of a threat, and if he isn't able to defend himself not much threat there either, it will facilatate the adrenaline dump because it is now real and no longer sparring which was the original question, how to make sparring more realistic.

Sparring can ony be realistic to an extent because it is a combat training/simulation.


Jeff

[Doug Marnick]

Jeff,

The predetermined moment I mentioned referred to when you wrote, "If we go all out from the start and do it until the other guy is out cold or "tapp's" or a referee stop's it, it would be much more realistic."
It seems you're referring more to the grappling aspect rather than the historical fencing itself. Although that would indeed make it realistic, it wouldn't be conducive to sparring for the purposes of learning and practice.
Martin's question referred to making practice contain a more "lethal feeling", i.e. more realistic psychological content; not making it real.
I agree with you that it is a simulation but your suggestion of going all out, no rules, etc. doesn't seem to be the answer.

Respectfully,

[Rod-Thornton]

First, let me state that I don't bruise easy, BUT the plum sized (and plum-colored) splotches on my body from free-play incent me enough to try hard to apply what the more senior members are teaching us. Fortunately they hide well under my clothing for work and about-town. The idea I need to be beaten until TKO or be forced to do calisthenics after losing to make me try in earnest is bogus. Simple enough....follow the 'system' and SPAR WITH INTENT...as it advises. That will give enough incentive once the complacent folks get a good thumping.

For proponents of the other more intense ideas, I'm going to compare this discipline with another one that has similar real-world consequences. I fly. When I take off, there ain't no-one there to make me land on the ground again but me. No second chances (as in a real-life combat encounter). My instructors provided safe havens to gradually 'hone' awareness and handling skills, and kinesthetic feel, and subtle finesse, and situational awareness, and changing dynamics of environment, and instinctive response to unexpected occurrences, and rapid-but-appropriate responses to them, etc., as well as a body fitness/tension level appropriate to the discipline -with the result of failing to develop all that being death usually. (Sound a little like the dynamics of combat here?) -After 15+ years of flying, I can say the first 50-100 approaches would have ended in splatter and a short newspaper column...but that was nearly 3000 landings ago.

You do not get that without providing, as Jeff indicated, the "safe haven" to develop it in and incubate your skills. Thus I think sparring "with intent" sufficient motivation. Sometimes merely asking someone "Are you serious about improving?" can do alot too to remove complacency if your group is having it without punitive measures.

[Rod-Thornton]

The only thing I've noticed in free play is that due to the nature of our padded weapons, we do not pommel bash (since that would end up in a 'real' bashing with their counter weights. Some recent activity had us closing to grapple quickly where a couple of times a pommel bash would have been perfectly set-up.

How are other groups doing free-play and pommel bashing with longsword?