Defeated by rapier...

[Lance Chan]

Tom Biliter's visit from USA

Tom has been working in China and spent his weekend in Hong Kong. He took the time to spar with us on 23rd October 2005. He has been practicing with sword and shield, sword and buckler and rapier. Since we did not have any shields and bucklers around by the time, he picked the rapier, which was probably the weapon he spent most time with. The result was devastating. None of us survived his accurate and skillful rapier work intact.


http://www.rsw.com.hk/activities.htm#tom

Added two more sparring videos



http://www.rsw.com.hk/videos.htm#new

[Mike Sega]

Lance,

I only looked at the video between you and Tom. I would say that you were very generous in acknowledging some of his hits. Some were not much more than a tap on the hand, not a thrust. How much power was there in the thrusts? I saw one connection where his rapier flexed a bit. How much does it take to do so with those rapiers? His hits seemd a bit light. Does any touch count? It was interesting to see you change to the half sword. You seemed to be more on the attack as the fight went on. I'm not sure what sparring rules you use but I think a coat would have negated his rapier quite well. A grab would have worked too, but do you allow that?

Intersting exercise. Thanks for sharing.

Mike Sega

[Lance Chan]

Hi Mike,

According to personal experience in thrusting with real sharp blades, it really didn't take much effort to puncture flesh and bone. A mere extension one's arm will get the tip through the bone. When you actually see the rapier flexed, it's quite a hard thrust already that could penetrate a whole person and still get into the second one already (could go right through the second one as well). You may check John Clement's video of testing of an antique rapier thrusting a big piece of free hanging pork in thearma.org's video gallery! It's so easy in penetrating the target. After watching that and having done quite an amount of test myself, I've no doubt that the thrusts he got on me would all resulted in at least 1 inch penetration. Now, how many places in your body you can afford receiving 1 inch of puncture? I doubt there would be many. Not that it would be a stopping blow, though, but it was an 1 on 1 fight that was done more to the "first blood" dueling rule. On the other hand, when we were doing grand melee, we would take scratches and non-stopping blows and still go on for a "dying strike".

Plus, I just tend to be more on the generous side to a visitor when he's playing nice.

[Mike Chidester]

Was it George Silver who said that he saw a man stabbed eight times by a rapier and still kill his opponent and recover?

[Lance Chan]

hehhe that I'm not sure, but from a handful of smallsword dueling records, the thrusts could be lethal, yet very often lacking the stopping effect to keep the user safe from any further confrontation.

Check the link below
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.shtml

[Michael J Pierce]

Just to add somecommentary to the interesting conversation:

It wouldmake sense to find such accounts of deadly thrust damage amoung smallsword records, however the historical rapier would be differient from what people generally think of the weapon. Having a tip like that of a sharpen pencil and virutally little edge (if any at all, the shape of the blade looking down on it, would be diamond or triangualar, also refer to the Rapier on pork test cut videos) Rapier and "smallswords" such as a "cut and thrust" or arming sword would have a different type of damage when thrusting. In contrast, the rapier's wound would be narrow and relatively small compared to the trust of a sword with a wider blade, in which casemaking the wound more deadly and more difficult to recover from. So, though painful, an attacker would not nessecary give a stoping blow with the thrust unless it hit something solid like bone or armor. From the pork test thrust you can see that it offered no resistance as you pointed out.

Thus, George Silver's obsveration. Writing against rapier fighting, george, must have observed men after reseiving a deadly thrust, "catch" thier attackers weapon as to render it stuck in their own bodies, then using the moment to end the life of their enemy before they themselves slip into oblivion.

As for the video, I really liked it, for the purpose of seeing some practitioners of the science in action. My first thought on this man's rapier technique was his slow foot work, he seemed rooted to the ground. I'd like to see a video simular to this again where your guest are not "going easy."

Michael

[Lance Chan]

Here's an example where my opponent was fighting mainly to revenge for his first match when I fought him in taiwan. He didn't quite willing to admit getting hit so I had to go harder and harder on him till I eventually broke something.... (his ego and pinky finger)

http://www.rsw.com.hk/leo-vs-lancelot-2.zip

[John_Clements]

Yeah, you have to watch for folk that will claim lethal rapeir hits from light taps or simple edge slaps. The historical evdience of rapier wounds and deaths shows that when it comes to lethal thrusts fighters can often keep on fighting for a signficant amount of time before being incapacitated. Unfortunatley, rapier hits in free-play can be quite indeteriminate, and hits have to be pretty firm against torsos or heads to count them as good.

But otherwise, as we always say, if you are not familiar with foyning fence a good rapier fighter will eat you up.

JC

[Stacy Clifford]

Actually I think a hard punch from a blunt rapier might even be more incapacitating in the short term than penetration by a sharp one. Blunt trauma doesn't seem to generate a delayed reaction very often.

[Robert Rolph]

But otherwise, as we always say, if you are not familiar with foyning fence a good rapier fighter will eat you up.

I don't know...European fencing styles seem kindda cumbersome and stiff...not to mention sluggish...compared to Thai, Chinese, Japanese, and a lot of oriental fencing style, IMO. I've seen Thai, Chinese and Japanese fencers train. And they seem to go faster than the eyes can see...that's why you don't mess around, especially with the Thai technique. They not only focus on using the blade but also physical endurance and strength which will come in handy...making it easier...when using weapons, and also help them move around faster. But I guess in the old days they probably did that also, not doubt. But, like I said...the European counterparts seem stiff, sluggish, and cumbersome, IMO.

[KatherineJohnson]

I would suggest that you should actually read the site attached to the forum that you are on.

[Mike Chidester]

Rob, you've obviously never trained with someone who actually knows how to fight with European weapons. So just take my word on this: the rapier is one of the most wickedly fast and deadly weapons ever devised.

[Lance Chan]

I personally have fought against Chinese style, Japanese style and Muay Thai trained fighters and more often than now, came out the top of it. What you see in the "flashy" practices were not applicable most of the time in actual combat. On my RSW sites there were many videos illustrating the fights I mentioned above. Just take some time and watch for yourself.

In my opinion, European swords are actually lighter than the Chinese and the Japanese swords at the same length due to the significant amount of distal taper making the balance closer to the hilt. And when compared to single edge swords like katana nad dha, two edged weapons wielded by two hands often have a more centralized, intrigued movements that made it travels less distance to reach the target. Talk about "efficiency of movements" here.

[Robert Rolph]

I was watching a Thai historical drama which was about French making a treaty with Siam (now Thailand) to give away an island, and I saw Thai villagers trained with Krabi-krabong dropping French soldiers like dolls in sword fights. And those weren't even the royal guards. No, offense...but nobody has ever beaten Muay Thai fighters in a fight to the death. Aytthayian fighters were legendary. Burmese soldiers would gang up on a royal guards in an offense formation with spears, and shields, or two spears in both hands...or swords...and more often he was more than a match. Sometimes he would refuse to go down and the Burmese would be forced to shoot him because noone is able to kill him (at least, it would more people) to save their men's lives. They strike with such speed, ferociousness, and strength that the Muay Thai arts, in its purest form, cannot be used spar as sport. They were train to not only to go up against 1 person, but as many as they can hold their own. Going full out would mean someone loosing his life in a split seconds.

[Lance Chan]

Drama... yes...

Burmese successfully invaded Thailand and ruled there many years (decades, if not more). Do you think Thailand's fighters were so invincible?

Anyway, it's off topic on this forum and I would like to stay away from discussing with someone who has so much superstition.