Penetrating Maile

[GaryGrzybek]

Hi all,

A discussion on another forum got me thinking. We know Maile armor provided a good amount of protection otherwise it wouldn't have been in use for so long. My understanding has always been that a cut would do some damage to Maile but a thrust would be much more affective. Now, this would also depend on the blade type being used and the Maile itself. A narrow reinforced point with enough force behind it should be able to break open the links and penetrate whatever lies beneath it. Of course, when I speak of Maile I mean the high quality riveted type. To be even more specific, could a well trained swordsman using a single hand sword specifically designed for the thrust penetrate Maile armor with relative ease? I don't recall any experiments using this specific scenario. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[s_taillebois]

The problem would be with your condition of it being a single hand sword. Later on, Estocs and such were developed as a means to compromise both mail and plate...but in general these were two handed weapons, often used half sworded.
That said, spike stylets and roundels could often punch through mail, so it would seem a single handed sword could do much the same. Have punched my stylet through some fairly stout plate steel (alas cookware), so see no reason why something with a stout enough point could compromise mail.

[Bill Tsafa]

I bought a cheep mail suit with butted rings. When I trimmed the sleves I had some mail left over for experimentation. I placed the mail over a cardbord box and did some thrusting tests with my Degeses sword. This is a realy pointy thrusting sword. You can see it on my website if you like.

First i thrust into the box without any mail over it. As you would expect if got full pentration very easy. Then I placed mail over the box and thrust again. The point streched one of the rings open a bit and penetrated about a half inch. I did this a few times. My conclusion is that even cheap mail is better then no mail. It can be the diffrence between a fleshwound and a fatal thrust.

[GaryGrzybek]

It's been my personal experience that cheap butted maile holds no candle to the real deal. I sheared clean through an entire strip of butted maile with a very sharp type X blade. The rings went flying everywhere. A thrust would be a joke since the rings would simply spread apart.

[GaryGrzybek]

Yes, this scenario would be isolated to a single hand sword. I know there are other weapons far more capable.

[JeanryChandler]

Erik Schmit (sp?) of the Armour Research Society participated in some tests on this a year or two ago, with somewhat contraversial results, at the Royal Armory at Leeds IIRC. I think there is a thread about it somewhere on here and also on Sword Forum. They found that at the amount of Joules estimated to be analagous to a lance strike they achieved first no penetration, and then with a little more power, partial penetration.

This was moderate quality riveted mail with a thin layer of padding (4mm?) meant to represent a gambeson. They were using something like a drill press with a hardened point on it like a lance point.

The argument which then ensued was whether the amount of energy they used was really correct (many felt it was too low) and whether the gambeson used was thick enough. From the discussion it sounds like the underlying padding effects penetration resistance to cuts and thrusts as well as blunt impacts.

I also remember that the breaks occured in the links not at the rivets.

More recently there was also another thread on this from myarmoury where people presented some very interesting primary source (Arab) anecdotes about the apparently incredible strength of so-called doubled mail, the nature of which was under discussion. I remember one of the stories was about a spear armed crusader knight who during a siege, lost a fight against a Turk, and then sort of curled up in a position "as if praying", the Turk hacked away at his back for a while, tried a few thrusts, and then gave up when unable to penetrate the armor, and walked off to fight another target.

My own personal feeling from trying to research this matter for a long time is that a single sword, even one somewhat optimized for thrusting / armor piercing, would have a pretty hard time peircing the finest riveted mail but it would not be impossible. It would have to be a very good thrust.

another major issue though is the quality of mail. Mail in Russia, Asia and the Middle East seems to have been of much lower quality than Frankish mail. Then you also have the issues of welded mail, doubled mail, and even allegedly steel or even tempered steel mail showing up in the later Renaissance.

Butted mail does not seem to have existed in archaic times. There are only two samples I know of that archeologists have found and these after examination are believed to be 'show' or parade armor.

Jeanry

[Stacy Clifford]

I remember at the International Gathering in 2003 we had a square patch of very densely woven riveted maile which seemed almost completely indestructible during test cutting by several different swords. This was it:

[GaryGrzybek]

I remember that but unfortunately I can't recall anyone attempting to pierce it. I'd sure love to have enough of that for a shirt

[Shane Smith]

I have attempted to pierce George Turners alternated welded/solid maille over a padded pell from the halfsword with no success whatsoever. We have defeated modern imported rivted maille from the halfsword here in VAB however;

[DavidEvans]

I seem to recall Sir John Suckling surviving a thrust from a rapier in a duel conducted in the style of a brawl because of the mail ever worn under his doublet or sewn into his doublet. Wonder how you do that? Out of idle interest I managed by dint of sheer stupidity to wound myself on my own A&A rapier, catching the point as I walked into it...Clever I know. The wound was the wideth of the point and went about 1 cm into the flesh. Ouch! I ended up having to butterfly stich it shut after washing out with saline and dressing it. It's only just started to close up, after careful washing and cleaning by the medic. So I kinda think that trying to hurt someone with my rapier will bloody well hurt!