Doebringer 39v

[JeffGentry]

Gentlemen

On Pg39v of Doebringer's manual from the Lindholm translation on the ARMA site.

"From both sides learn eight turning in(Winden) with step's. And one turning in(Winden) with three pieces I mean thus it is twenty four if you count them one by one. Swordsmen notice it and note the turning in(Winden) correctly. And learn to do them well and you will be able to hit the four openings since each opening surely has six ways to be hit."

I have my idea of what this passage say's.

How do you folk's read and interpret it?

I am just wnating to see what some other's think, and compare it to what i think.

Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

IMO you have at each opening the ability to cut, thrust or slice, from inside or outside, long or short edge. Multiplied by 4 openings. Actually doing this in practice is another story.....

[philippewillaume]

This is my take on it

You have 4 hangings and 2 windens per hanging; I.E 8 windens and you can do the 3 attack strike, slice and thrust from any given winden hence 8*3=24 possibility
The hangings are a somewhat extended version of the ox and the plough on the left and the right.
From any single hanging you can wind to your right or to your left (according to what you get)
And that seems to be working as well…. Scarry isn’t it …
phil

[JeffGentry]

Hey Philippe

"You have 4 hangings and 2 windens per hanging;/From any single hanging you can wind to your right or to your left (according to what you get)"I compounded Pilippe's post.


So you say the 2 winden are right and left?



"I.E 8 windens and you can do the 3 attack strike, slice and thrust from any given winden hence 8*3=24 possibility"


I am becoming a fan of using the word cut to indicate , well a cut i have noticed lately in the manuals the word strike is used to indicate hitting your opponent and not indicative of a specific type of strike.


Jeff

[philippewillaume]

I think so yes....

Let say
You strike a zhorn, he is strong, you then thrust to his face.
You are in the hangen that looks like and extended left ox.
If he lift up and trie to deflect the blow,you continue the wind, de facto going around his cross guard, to hit him in the belly.
So we are still winding towards our left.
We wind towards our left as well when he tries to go over our sword. we sort of reverse the winding at the end to stick him in his right side in a right lower hanging.
So it is really the same start only the end is slightly different

Basically we are in the generic case where he going to our left so we wind left. I suppose that we could say clockwise as well

From the same initial position, i.e. the left high hanging
If he goes under our blade (so he is going toward our right),you then wind to your right to keep the blade your blade on top of his and keep control. Eventually ending up in either a low or hanging on your right according to what he does.

And that the generic case where we are he is going to the right of the hanging so we wind right or counter clockwise.
So from a given hangen we can wind either left or right or clockwise and counterclockwise.
Did that make some sort of sense ?

Yes I think I agree with you there, at least on the principle, when they say strike it means at the man, it is something else it is précised in the description.

The problem I have with the English world cut is that I think it is not processes enough. It designed the wounds as wells as the action so a shnitt will result in a cut. And because I speak English like a foreigner, I think there is a chance that I can misunderstand what people meant (or be misunderstood) myself.

That being said, the verb strike does not imply that you hit, it just says that you take a swing. So I cannot say that I fundamentally disagree with your approach.

Phlip phlop

[JeffGentry]

Hey Philippe

The problem I have with the English world cut is that I think it is not processes enough. It designed the wounds as wells as the action so a shnitt will result in a cut. And because I speak English like a foreigner, I think there is a chance that I can misunderstand what people meant (or be misunderstood) myself.

That being said, the verb strike does not imply that you hit, it just says that you take a swing. So I cannot say that I fundamentally disagree with your approach.

Well that is a problem with alot of english it is not a very precise language, i do agree with you on the fact it can indicate a swing.



yea i understood what you are saying, and don't fundementaly disagree.

I do think of it a little diffrently though.

And learn to do them well and you will be able to hit the four openings since each opening surely has six ways to be hit."

Now this part of the passage say's there are six way's to hit any opening, We are told there are 2 basic strike's over and under, and the hanging are upper and lower, so could we not attack an opening with a cut (oberhau, unterhau), thrust (oberhau, unterhau), slice (oberhau, unterhau).

We could attack say the left upper opening with an initial cut oberhau then wind in to thrust over there sword, then go to a lower hanging and thrust to that left upper opening from under, never having to stop our attack to change opening's and simply using Ober and unter to attck one opening with the Dre wunder.

so 3 attack's, cut , thrust or slice, 2 way's of attacking an opening over and under, and 4 opening's to attack so we have the same 24, 4*2=8*3=24 or 3*2=6*4=24, no matter how you do the math i think the important thing though is ober and unter.


So could we use this to attack one opening six time's then move onto another opening there by being able to keep the vor or even go from offense to defense and back to the offense or heck even go from defense to offense seemlessly and quickly?


Jeff

[Matt_Bruskotter]

I read a lot of Goliath and I find the term "cut" to me draw slice and thrust and strike are obvious.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Matt

I read a lot of Goliath and I find the term "cut" to me draw slice and thrust and strike are obvious.

As far as i can tell schnitt is translated as slice, and hau/haw/hewe is translated as cut.

ie Goliath "...learn five strikes from the right hand,..."
Original German "...Funff hewe lere von der rechten hant wer..."
(someone correct that if it is wrong i am learning through osmosis)

this is a clear indication to me that he is talking about the 5 hidden strike's(Master strikes) which we know are full arm cuts not slices.



Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Hello jeff

That is not what VD-lew, ringeck or speyers says they make the left right thing quite clear. However I think you are right as far as Dobringer is concerned.


In fact after a bit of reflection, it is just a different way to express the concept.
In our context any way, oberhaw uberhaw is equivalent to right left


If we are in the left upper hanging, there is only one general direction the ober (haw,scnitt,thrust) can take so that it will keep us safe and so it is the same for the uter (haw,scnitt,thrust).
Ie if I go left I do an oberhaw, if I go right it is an unterhaw


philippe

[Bill Welch]

"From both sides learn eight turning in(Winden) with step's. And one turning in(Winden) with three pieces I mean thus it is twenty four if you count them one by one. Swordsmen notice it and note the turning in(Winden) correctly. And learn to do them well and you will be able to hit the four openings since each opening surely has six ways to be hit."

from the take that I have the turnings are on the pommel-tip axis of the sword. So the turnings are turning the true edge false edge against the sword of your oppo.

So this math is 2 edges x 4 opennings, x 3 wonders = 24

[JeffGentry]

Gent's

Philippe

I see what your saying, had not caught the right/left in Ringeck.

So do we need to change opening's with each attack?

from the take that I have the turnings are on the pommel-tip axis of the sword. So the turnings are turning the true edge false edge against the sword of your oppo.

Hey Bill, I am assuming you mean the axis longitudenaly(sp?).

Jeff

[philippewillaume]

I would say yes, but this is ringeck logic here, i.e. I am winding because you protected the target I was aiming at with initial hengen (or the winding that was doing before you pary). So if it is protected I need to go somewhere else.

But I have to say that I remember Dobringer being more generic in his definition of what Winden is (or ringeck vd,lew and speyer are more morestrictive J) so there may be some subtle difference that make the strike at the same place possible.
I would need to read the text again.

Phil

[Bill Welch]

"Hey Bill, I am assuming you mean the axis longitudenaly(sp?)."

Yes, from 18V
"Here follows a general teaching (Glosa generalis
hiuius sequitur)
Before all know and note that the point of
the sword is the centre and also its centre
and core and from this comes all fencing and
all returns to it. So the hangings [Hengen]
and the turnings [Winden] is the hanging in
and the going around of the centre"

and then from 21R

"You shall do with one mind and one
strike the first strike [Vorschlag] and the
after strike [Nachschlag] quickly one after
the other, and when it happens that the opponent
defends against the strike, then he
will do this with his sword and you will be
on his sword. And when the opponent is
slow and late then you can remain on his
sword and right away turn [Wind] and note
and feel [Fulen] if the other gathers himself
in order to move away or not. If he moves
off when you have come on the sword in
front of one another and extend the points
at one another to the openings [Blossen],
then you shall –before the opponent has
time to gather himself in order to strike or
thrust-

21V
follow him with the point and do a good
thrust to the chest or something like that
as quickly and directly as you can. "

I dont think that turning is duplieren(changing thru) or mutieren(transmuting), but is rotating the sword on its longitudenal axis to change from one hanging to the other to gain leverage advantage and to get into position to hew, thrust, or slice.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Gent's

Philippe

I would say yes, but this is ringeck logic here, i.e. I am winding because you protected the target I was aiming at with initial hengen (or the winding that was doing before you pary). So if it is protected I need to go somewhere else.

Why not just change the type of attack depending on the amount of pressure on your sword?

Go from an oberhau to a high thrust at the same opening.

Before all know and note that the point of the sword is the centre and also its centre and core and from this comes all fencing and all returns to it. So the hangings [Hengen] and the turnings [Winden] is the hanging in and the going around of the centre

well this leads me to believe that winding revolves around the point, it does say "Before all know and note that the point of the sword is the centre and also its centre and core and from this comes all fencing and all returns to it. So the hangings and the turnings is the hanging in and the going around of the centre", to me it is like if you put the point of your waster on the floor and put a hand on the pommel and make a circle with the pommel not moving the point, the point is the center of the turning and everything is going around it.

I dont think that turning is duplieren(changing thru) or mutieren(transmuting)

(changing through is durchlaufen)

These are thing's you use winding to do IMO, Duplieren is a double hit and muterien is mutating like a high cut to the head Mutating to a thrust to the chest by winding when they defend.

but is rotating the sword on its longitudenal axis to change from one hanging to the other to gain leverage advantage and to get into position to hew, thrust, or slice.

I think this has more to do with feeling because if the opponent press's hard be weak and guide his point outside your body.


Jeff

[Bill Welch]

Jeff wrote:
"Why not just change the type of attack depending on the amount of pressure on your sword?
Go from an oberhau to a high thrust at the same opening."


If that is what can be done go for it. the Three wonders are to be used on each openning, when they can be used, if you could do all three at the same openning and not get killed, I would say you could do it.


Jeff wrote:
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Before all know and note that the point of the sword is the centre and also its centre and core and from this comes all fencing and all returns to it. So the hangings [Hengen] and the turnings [Winden] is the hanging in and the going around of the centre


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well this leads me to believe that winding revolves around the point, it does say "Before all know and note that the point of the sword is the centre and also its centre and core and from this comes all fencing and all returns to it. So the hangings and the turnings is the hanging in and the going around of the centre", to me it is like if you put the point of your waster on the floor and put a hand on the pommel and make a circle with the pommel not moving the point, the point is the center of the turning and everything is going around it."



Exactly you can not change from left ox to right ox with out turning around your point as the center, and turning the sword over changing edges , or from left ox to right plow with out turning your sword over, but use the point as the center because it is important to keep the point as close to your adversary as you can to make a quick strike, thrust, or slice.


Jeff wrote
In reply to:
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I dont think that turning is duplieren(changing thru) or mutieren(transmuting)


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(changing through is durchlaufen)

These are thing's you use winding to do IMO, Duplieren is a double hit and muterien is mutating like a high cut to the head Mutating to a thrust to the chest by winding when they defend.



From the Glossary of kunst des fechtens , and the glossary of Medieval martial terms

Duplieren -- (“Doubling”)
Doplieren -- (“Doubling”) To instantly follow up a parried true-edge strike with a false edge strike around the opponent’s blade. A Winden variant; or an Oberhau that turns into a Dupliert (snatch), through a swift crossing over of the arms - the left hand, that guides the sword pommel, goes under the right - in this position your sword is between the weapon and body of the opponent, hit with a backhand with the Kurtzen Schnyde against his unprotected head and a Zeckruroren against the arms. See also Abluaffen.

as opposed to
Durchlauffen -- (“pass through”, “running through” or “to run though”) A term for two actions: 1. To run under a highly directed attack of the opponent, while you keep the hilt of your sword on the left side of your head and put the blade across the back, and move through under the opponent’s weapon. 2. To pass all the way under the opponents raised right arm, so that you can reach his back and do a wrestling throw.

Durchwechsel, durchwechssler, durchwechseln, wechslen: (change through) 1. To change the attack to another opening from the bind. 2. To place the point under the opponent's sword before the bind, slipping through, and thrusting to a lower opening. 3. To draw a parry to a thrust, then to disengage to the other side.

SO we are both wrong, i meant Durchwechsel, durchwechssler, durchwechseln, or wechslen( we need more words that mean the same thing) and you guys were saying english is not precise.

Mutieren -- A Winden variant. To direct the course of attack from the upper to the lower Blossen.
After the Anbinden with the Langen Schneide, wind the Kurze Schneide into a Band, lift your arms and the hilt high and change means Schiessen, with a thrust into the lower Blossen, sliding away, over the opponent’s sword.


Jeff wrote:
"I think this has more to do with feeling because if the opponent press's hard be weak and guide his point outside your body."


I think that basically yes, because you would not turn, double, change thru, or transmute if the "feeling" did not require it.


In 39V Dobringer, does not mention changing thru, or attacking any other openning. He mentions turning and stepping.
The only reason I dont tie the two together (changing thru, and turning) is in 34V
"He who binds you [your sword] is
found to be open by the changing through
[Durchwechsel]. When you have “changed
through”, strike, thrust or turn [Wind]."

He says to do one of these after you have changed thru, strike, thrust or turn [Wind]