A question on historical masters

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Rod-Thornton
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A question on historical masters

Postby Rod-Thornton » Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:23 pm

This may end up being a rather dumb question, but I began to wonder just how the historically recognized masters (such as Silver, Swetnam, Fiore, Ferro, Ringeck, Talhoffer, etc. etc. all the way back to Leichtnaur.) became to be recognized BY US MODERN FOLKS as "Masters" of their art.... Surely a system of guilds or regional lords originally recognized them back then. That of course could allow for their status while still they had competing (and controversial) opinions on defense between them? -But again, I wonder who was the best for their time and how those opinions were formed...if at all...into consensus. Was it a "recognition via success with surviving students?" sort of thing? -To what extent (if any) are they recognized by modern historians as being "masters" simply because they have an identifyable treatise or manual extant? Case in point, in some modern authors' opinions that I have read I have come across that some Masters' fightbooks were considered not that masterful, albeit, richly and handsomely crafted with an example given of a Spanish book.

In short, I am asking how do we (modern folks) go about recognizing a master and his fightbook as being such? If you think about it, the parody of how much junk is available online today from a plethora of writings might be difficult for some futuristic historian to dissect as "valid, good how-to stuff" and "some idiots' web preachings" in a few centuries.

Obviously, whether it works in real combat is a key, and primary metric....but there must be more to it than that, right? I was wondering if just the mere existence of it as a historical document (which by itself has immense value but not necessarily value as a good fighting guide) tends to bias our modern thoughts on it as it its being reconstructed. -

Again, I warned this might be a dumb question, but if you think about it a moment, to the modern student, it sort of can help you think about just whose works you wish to spend more time with, and whose you just might not be all that keen on studying as deeply.
Rod W. Thornton, Scholar Adept (Longsword)
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SzabolcsWaldmann
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Re: A question on historical masters

Postby SzabolcsWaldmann » Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:19 am

Well,

From Fiore we know his student's success, no? The Same can be said about Lichtenauer. I mean, him being a teacher, he had students from who we know at least about 3-4 who outlived him with almost half a century, writing fightbooks and teaching the Art. If somebody fights for this long, he must have been at least some fighter, no?
Then, what about the teachings which are included time after time in codexes again and again almost unchainged? There is that riddleful fighter of Hundsfeldt, who has techings in at least 3 codexes streching for a good hundred years. If they recognized his teachings this often, it must have had some value.
But hey. Nowadays Masters are recognized after only 4-5 years in BigDickDo! Hell, you can even BUY your black belt via Internet! Or ever heard about a "Bronze Royal Diamond Life Member"? In comparison, we have every right to call Talhoffer a master, for he lived by the sword and simply by surviving those fights he proved his knowledge in the Art. Todays Masters are in most cases only a mockery of that word.
We should maybe NOT call Lichtenauer a Master, for the word is being abused and dragged through the slime and the mud nowadays....

*angry*

Szab
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Rod-Thornton
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Re: A question on historical masters

Postby Rod-Thornton » Thu Jan 26, 2006 6:18 am

Yeah, I wasn't talking about recognnizing modern masters...but rather how we as modern folks recognize a historical western master. I cannot help wonder if any of them were self-proclaimed all those centuries ago.
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Allen Johnson
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Re: A question on historical masters

Postby Allen Johnson » Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:28 am

I asked a similar question a while back here ( http://www.thearma.org//forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=openresearch&Number=12568&page=&view=&sb=&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 ) though it came out of smallsword vs broadsword techniques. Not all of there info there will apply but I think the point of what qualified these guys to write manuals is still valid.
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Matt Easton
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Re: A question on historical masters

Postby Matt Easton » Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:42 am

Fiore has this to say about it (my translation, which is on my website linked below):

"Of these and of others, to whom I, Fiore, have taught, I am very proud, because I have been well rewarded and I obtained the esteem and the affection of my students and of their relatives. Also, I say I always taught this art secretly, so that no one was assisting to the lessons except for the student and some discrete relatives, and if someone else who was there by grace or favour, with Sacrament they stayed, promising with faith not to reveal any of the plays they saw from me, Master Fiore. And most of all I was wary of other fencing Masters and of their students. And they, the Masters, out of envy demanded me to fight with cut and thrust swords in zuparello darmare, without any other armour except for a pair of suede (chamois) gloves; and all this had happened because I did not want to practice with them and teach them anything of my art. And this fact happened five times. And five times, for my honour, I have had to fight in unfamiliar places without relatives and without friends, not trusting anyone but God and my art and myself, Fiore, and my sword. And by the grace of God, I, Fiore, kept my honour and I did not injure myself. Also I, Fiore, told my students who had to fight in the barriers that fighting in the barriers is much and much less dangerous than fighting with cut and thrust swords in zuparello darmare because to the one who plays with sharp swords, failing just one cover gives him death. While the one who fights in the barriers and is well armoured, can be given a lot of hits, but still he can win the battle. Also there is another fact: that rarely someone dies because he gets hit. Thus I can say that I would rather fight three times in the barriers than just once with sharp swords, as I said above. And thus I say that a man who fights in the barriers, being well armoured, and knowing the art of combat, and having all the advantages which can be obtained, if he is not valiant, he would better hang himself, although I can say that for the grace of god never one of my students I have made a looser in this art. In fact they have always kept their honour. Also I, the aforementioned Fiore, say that these noble knights and squires, to whom I showed this art of combat, have been satisfied of my teachings, not wanting any other master but me. Also I say that none of my students, especially those mentioned above, have ever had a book about the art of combat, except for Messer Galeazzo da Mantova. Because he said that without books no one can be a good master or a good student in this art. And I, Fiore, confirm it to be true, because this art is so vast that there is no one in the world who has such a big memory to keep in mind the fourth section of this art without books. Though not knowing the fourth section of this art I would not be a Master any more. So that I, Fiore, being able to read and write and draw, and having books about this art and having studied it for 40 years and more, yet I am not a perfectly good master in this art, although I am considered a good and perfect master in the art I mentioned above, by great noblemen who have been my students. And if I say that if I had studied for 40 years law and politics and medicine as I studied the art of combat, I would have been doctor in those three subjects. And in this science of combat I had big difficulties and effort and consequences, to be just a good student. I, the aforementioned Fiore, considering that of this art there are few Masters in the world, and wanting be remembered in it, I will write a book about the whole art and about all the things I know, of steel and of tempere and of other things, following the instructions which that other nobleman gave me, the one who above the others, because of martial virtue, I like the most, and who deserved more this book of mine, for his nobility, than any other nobleman who I will ever meet or could meet, that is, my illustrious and excellent lord, the powerful prince Messer NICOLO’ Marquis d’Este, Signore of the noble city of Ferrara, of Modena, Reggio and Parma et cetera, to whom God may give a good life and future prosperity, with victory over his enemies AMEN. "

You must remember that 'Master' does not necessarily mean the same in different places and at different times. In medieval Italy a Maestro was simply someone who was generally recognised to be a teacher. In Elizabethan London a Master was someone who had passed a test to become a teacher, under the London Masters of Defence (basically a guild).

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Matt

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Allen Johnson
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Re: A question on historical masters

Postby Allen Johnson » Thu Jan 26, 2006 9:47 am

great point- So maybe we might need to think of it as perhaps like "coach"? Take an average high school basketball coach, then take someone like Phil Jackson. We call them both coaches but they are obviously not even remotley close in terms of skill. There is no all time screening process for becoming a coach. I guess the difficulty then is finding the 'Phil Jackson's' of their time period.
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Brian Hunt
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Re: A question on historical masters

Postby Brian Hunt » Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:27 pm

Later on in Germany you had fencing guilds such as the Marxbruder's or the Feder Fechters who would determine who was a master and who wasn't. This type of structure deemed that Paulus Hector Mair, who may have written the largest collection on European martial arts, was only a fencing enthusiast and not a master. So the true answer may be, it depends.

Interestingly enough George Silver has to this to say about mastership of the sword.

A swordsman should be not so interested in the destruction of his opponent that he disregards his own defence. A Master of defence is he who can take to the field and know that (unless God is against him) he shall not come to any harm


just some thoughts on this.

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Re: A question on historical masters

Postby Jake_Norwood » Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:34 am

Actually, historically speaking, i think that a Coach--or even Drill Sergeant--are appropriate comparisons to the some ancient masters.

The problem, linguistically, is that we're confusing two meanings of master that have developed over time and space.

One, "Master" from "Magister" meaning simply, "Teacher" or "Professor" (as in a "Master's Degree, by which, for example, my wife is a "Master of Psychology")

Two "Master" which has, in modern parlance, grown into "one who has obtained Mastery" (note the circular definition...). In modern terms we think of a "master swordsman" along the lines of what Silver described, or perhaps as a title granted by a qualified guild (of which there are now none).

Thus it could be argued that although neither I nor John C. are "masters" we are both "masters" to those that would consider us "teachers..."

But the confusion that would set in should any of us begin to take the title, given the modern implications of it, is immense and unnecessary.


I do really like the idea of a "sword coach," though...

Jake
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SzabolcsWaldmann
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Re: A question on historical masters

Postby SzabolcsWaldmann » Fri Jan 27, 2006 4:17 am

Well, i believe there is a further meaning to the name Master today, that being a Guru, a wise and charismatic person, almost like a preacher, a little buddha, an all-knowing guy who is a spiritual teacher as well. A Master of this meaning comes mainly from the TV and Movie and some martial arts cults which encourge such hypeful and downright unhealthy behaviour. One would expect a master to be unbeatable (also, a Movie hype), friendly, all-knowing and unaproachable. If we look at this meaning of the word "master", we of course cannot know if our Western Martial Arts Fechtbuchwriters were masters, wise and all-knowing gurus, fathers, odds and ends for their pupils or not. But Masters at Arms? Surely!

Then again.... Hanko and Lecküchner were both priests, as was in my opinion the one who wrote I33 just as well. Fiore was a commandant of a heavy battalion (fioredeilibery.org) and a master swordsman in the court of Nicolo D'il Este, so some charisma he should have posessed.

Szab
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Matt Easton
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Re: A question on historical masters

Postby Matt Easton » Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:44 am

Hi Szab - good points.
Just a couple of corrections though:
Fiore was, according to the records of Udine, put in charge of a body of crossbowmen and artillery. This was actually totally normal for a noble man-at-arms of the time: We see the same thing during the Agincourt campaign - each body of archers in the English army was placed under the authority of a man-at-arms. And most men-at-arms were not noble, so a noble one, even a minor-noble, would be a good candidate to put in charge of archers or crossbowmen. It does not mean he was special - at least that is not a demonstration of him being special.
And it is www.fioredeiliberi.org <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />.
Just trying to help out,
Best regards,
Matt

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Re: A question on historical masters

Postby Shane Smith » Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:26 pm

I don't consider you or John(or anyone else in WMA for that matter) masters in any sense of the word,but I do freely recognize and aknowledge your admirable skills which surpass my own. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

I know a handful of guys that are more skilled Swordsmen than I, and I know several men that are lesser Swordsman maybe ,yet I consider us all peers in the absolute sense. Brothers in arms if you will.
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Re: A question on historical masters

Postby Jake_Norwood » Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:32 am

Hah. I'm so badly out of practice that I hope not to hurt myself next time I pick up a blunt!

There was a comment made once about needing to return from war in order to train for it, since war itself is bad preparation for war. I definitely resemble that remark on a number of levels!

My point, of course, wasn't that I am worth of any "Master" title...but I like the idea of "Sword Coach," and I'm fairly confident that I know as much about swordsmanship as my wife knows about psychology (and she's a master of that, according to a framed piece of paper I once saw).

My honest feeling is that we, as a modern culture, have over-blown the term master like most anything else nowadays. Like Szabolcs pointed out, that master has some kind of potential even "spiritual" connotations, like what we might find in a guru. I find it frustrating, frankly, and I would like there to one be a legitimate guild that could declare masters--but no one, and I mean NO ONE, is in a position to do that yet. I don't expect it in my lifetime, either.

Besides, it sounds hokey. I'd rather be called a Provost than a Master anyway.

Next step...

Jake
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