Point use in Meyer

[Bill Welch]

I know that this is a subject that has been talked about in a few threads, but I found an interesting section in Meyer at the beginning of the chapter on Striking it reads:

"Nun kompt das man zu der kunst und freien Ritterlichen übung selbst schreite, nemlich zu den Haewen, welche das eine rechte Hauptstück im Fechten, wie solches anfangs gemeldet, seind, wie viel deren, was ein jeder sey, wie er gemacht und volbracht sol werden, ist nöttig hie etwas zusagen, will allein hie den freundlichen Leser zu vorderst erinnert haben, Dieweil zwischen dem Schwerdt Fechten zu unsern zeiten, wie bey unsern vornfahren und uralten im gebrauch gewesen, ein grosser underscheid, das ich an diesem ort nur was jetzund gebräuchlich und so viel zum Schwerdt gehörig von häuwen erzelen, so vil der alten gebrauch aber belangt, wie sie beide mit Hauwen und stechen scharpff gefochten, will ich in seinem gewissen unnd sondern ort anzeigen.

Now I come to write of the artful and free Knightly exersize, namely to the Strikes, which is a major Heading in Fencing in that the basics are given here, the number is told, each is described, and how they are executed to the full, will here be noted and told, and from here alone the friendly reader will afterward be reminded, that between the Sword Fighting times, when it was in custom for our forefathers and the ancients, and our time there is a great difference, in that not only was the point used, which is not the custom today, but of old much more of the Sword was used in the strikes, and they fenced sharply with both strikes and stabs, and thus shall I present this and other points of knowledge."

I think that this quote shows that in Meyers fightbook he did not use the point because the point was being used, and taught in other forms of fencing " ...that between the Sword Fighting times, when it was in custom for our forefathers and the ancients, and our time there is a great difference, in that not only was the point used, which is not the custom today, but of old much more of the Sword was used in the strikes,..." and not so much because it was a fight book just for school fencing or because it was safer to not use the point.

What does everybody else get out of this??

[Mike Cartier]

yes I think he is talking about a cultural bias towards excessive use of the point, perhaps it was seen as less manly or something. He was the very man trying to import the use of the point into German arts though i think. He was the rapier man, the polearms sections is full of thrusts and even the dusack has thrusts, so he was no stranger to the art of thrusting.

It is my personal opinion that everything thing we need for thrusting with the longsword is described in the guards. Use of the thrust is up to the individual.

[Bill Welch]

Mike Carier wrote"yes I think he is talking about a cultural bias towards excessive use of the point, perhaps it was seen as less manly or something. He was the very man trying to import the use of the point into German arts though i think. He was the rapier man, the polearms sections is full of thrusts and even the dusack has thrusts, so he was no stranger to the art of thrusting."

I dont think that at all, by this time rapier was getting very big. I think he was reminding his readers that the long sword also had edges that could be used for cutting, and not to use the long sword for just thrusting like the rapier.

But more to the point(HA HA HA HA), anyway, I think that this shows why Meyer does not reference thrusting in his long sword combat simply because the thrust was already widely known and apparently widely used.

Which is why he said
"and from here alone the friendly reader will afterward be reminded, that between the Sword Fighting times, when it was in custom for our forefathers and the ancients, and our time there is a great difference, in that not only was the point used, which is not the custom today, but of old much more of the Sword was used in the strikes, "

[david welch]

Bill, I think I like the original translation of that passage better... it says the same thing but reads better. The problem is from the commas that are not in the original. I think if it is going to be written like that it needs to be:

that between the Sword Fighting times, when it was in custom for our forefathers and the ancients, and our time there is a great difference, in that not only was the point used, but that which is not the custom today but of old much more of the Sword was used in the strikes, and they fenced sharply with both strikes and stabs, and thus shall I present this and other points of knowledge."

Or, and I think better,

that between the Sword Fighting times, when it was in custom for our forefathers and the ancients, and our time there is a great difference, in that not only was the point used, but of old much more of the Sword was used in the strikes which is not the custom today, and they fenced sharply with both strikes and stabs, and thus shall I present this and other points of knowledge."

In other words, not only did the ancient fencers thrust with the point like we do today, but they also cut with more of the sword, which we don't do, so I am going to tell you about the cutting part.

I can add this in to Meyer telling you things like:

"What the right Iron Door is, which you will find out should you go farther onto Rapier Fencing, that while it is used in stabbing with the Sword as by us Germans,

…that I take that as him saying that the thrusting part will be covered in rapier.

Now Meyer is not covering thrusting because they don't use it... but you have Meyer as the German George Silver, echoing Silver's " Perfect fight stands upon both blow and thrust, there-fore the thrust is not only to be used". Meyer knows everybody thrusts... he want to teach them you can cut with the whole long sword too, and tries to bring that to the fore-front.

People were thrusting more, but using less and less cutting, and people like Meyer was trying to keep that art whole...

Of course... that kind of thinking will eventually lead you to think maybe rapier was not some new thing after all, but just developed from long sword thrusting into a specialized style with swords incapable of cutting. The rapier wasn't doing anything new, they just quit cutting and the sword developed for that use. If that were proven true, Lord knows what would happen to "the pinnacle of the sword arts" people. They would probably start committing mass suicide.

That's a lot of speculation, but it's fun, makes sense, and ties a bunch of stuff together.

David Welch
ARMA East Tennessee