Samurai vs Europeans?not the same old debate

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Ray_McCullough
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Samurai vs Europeans?not the same old debate

Postby Ray_McCullough » Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:12 pm

Hey

Im not looking to open the old debate. I m trying to find historical info on real events.

I can t find anything by searching the internet(never can). I tried to look up the accounts with Portuguese sailors but cant read portuguese.

Please help. I have friends who believe the samurai were gods and i believe in proving with evidence on the contrary to that ilustrius status.

Thanks for the help.
"The Lord is my strength and my shield. My heart trusteth in Him and I am helped.." Psalms 28:7

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Filip Pobran
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?

Postby Filip Pobran » Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:55 pm

seriously, i was afraid... again samurai vs. european knight! <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> but this is interesting. i have no knowledge about this, but i'll read this topic dayly...

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philippewillaume
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?

Postby philippewillaume » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:20 am

well technology wise:
you can point them to the sutton hoo sword to start with and metion that in the 16th cent, the japanesses imported protuguess/spannish cuirrace (nanban dô)
Have a look http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.html for more details

By the 1300 European were able to produce crucible steel hence a steel with the same or better quality that pattern welded/folded style with much less time and material needed.

Technique wise:
Well a katana/tachi is a longsword (well a shortish one) and you can find similarity in several Japanese school and European swordsmanship tradition (especially pre- Tokugawa)
As far as half-swording well that strikingly (excuse the punt) like Jo-jutsu.

If you take ringen, well people wo are doing ju-jitsu will find striking resemblance (and so are people who do judo, hapkido or aikido as well as people who are doing army combative or MMA)

If you want a concrete exeample use the bone breaker in Ringeck ringen.
The 4 at the arm are shiho-nague and the two at the left are used as defense against kick in aikido but it does exist in ju-jitsu definitely. (And I am pretty sure that other poster who do different martial art can give other example)

At the end European and samurai have two-leg two arms, a truck and one head (at least at the start of their career) and all that happen to work a similar fashion across the world so since they faced the same problems&amp;#8230;..
One Ringeck to bring them all In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.

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Allen Johnson
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?

Postby Allen Johnson » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:26 am

Though I havent read it, I seem to recall there are accounts of the Euro sailors in the book, "Nathaniel's Nutmeg : Or True Incredible Adventures Spice Trader Who Changed Course history".

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0140292608/ref=wl_it_dp/103-4585418-7078218?%5Fencoding=UTF8&amp;colid=2SJ11VABZ5KG&amp;coliid=I1L681Z7LITOJY&amp;v=glance&amp;n=283155
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?not the same old debate

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Mon Feb 27, 2006 2:53 pm

Your concern is a valid one, and I appreciate your approach to this topic. I have also run into the worshipful attitude which some have for the katana, and their consequent ignorance regarding the sword. I would suggest entertaining a related idea which may help exploring this issue of Japanese katana and European sword:

If it were to become common to refer to the katana as a type of "sabre" rather than a type "sword", then perhaps many disputes about one vis-a-vis the other would disappear.

This is not mere semantics. This is about accurately describing things with distinctive words. This is a needed starting point for reasoned and scholarly debate.

If this does not suit the majority opinion and/or vocabulary, then perhaps the majority should reconsider its reasons for insisting upon the status quo. Or take a class in logic or debate.

Now to the idea of sabres: The shape, cross-section, bevel, number of edges (one), curve, hand-guard, cutting dynamics, and so forth make the katana a type of saber. Its similarities to a sabre are most certainly far greater than to any weapon of Oakeshott-type X, XI, XII, XIII. XIV etc., any of which is a sword.

That said, if a simple definitive understanding were reached, then perhaps a better understanding of each type of weapon would be less contentious for all concerned.

If we consider the Japanese katana a sabre, then such would probably lead to more reasonable and reasoned comparison in much the same way as when someone compares a European sabre to a European sword. Get it? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

In any case, it would at least be calling something what it actually is, rather than what most people typically and, arguably, unthinkingly say it is.

Good luck,
JLH

*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

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Ray_McCullough
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?not the same old debate

Postby Ray_McCullough » Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:20 pm

Hey Guys

Thanks for the posts, but I was looking more for actual accounts of duels and brawls with sword play.

I studied Bujutsu for 2 1/2 years. I can prove the Unarmed side of wma by showing the examples of Jujutsu that I learned. My Sensei is a very close friend. He doesn t have the "my kung-fu is better than you" attitude. He knows that if I tell him something about history , that I have studied it in some depth.

He loved it when I showed him the examples of the unarmed techniques and guards. They are identical to some of the guards or kamae in japanese. The differences always seem to be cultural and methodology differences, but that is true in all martial arts. Even among the different ryu (traditions) The same technique will only change because I want my enemy pinned at my feet instead of thrown farther away.

Has any one read the book mentioned? Please let me know.

Thanks again for the help
"The Lord is my strength and my shield. My heart trusteth in Him and I am helped.." Psalms 28:7

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Martin_Wilkinson
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?not the same old debate

Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Tue Feb 28, 2006 11:14 am

Stupid question time: Isn't a sabre a type of sword?

Martin.
"A bullet, you see, may go anywhere, but steel's almost bound to go somewhere."

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SzabolcsWaldmann
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?not the same old debate

Postby SzabolcsWaldmann » Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:11 am

....well, historically, I cannot say where the english term "sword" comes from, but I know a lot of countries where there was no word describing all cutting sword-like weapons in one (like we use the term today). In german, Schwert (meaning sword) did not describe Säbel (Sabre). In Hungarian, Kard (persian word for a Messer-like weapon) meaning simply sword was not used for Szablya (Sabre). So generally, in the medievals, "sword" did not mean sabre as far as I know. Just look at italian sources for names!


Szabolcs
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Martin_Wilkinson
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?not the same old debate

Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:08 am

Doesn't sword generally mean 'long' bladed weapon, and if so doesn't the sabre fit into that description. I think that's why the katana has been called a sword, not a sabre.

Martin.
"A bullet, you see, may go anywhere, but steel's almost bound to go somewhere."

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John_Clements
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?not the same old debate

Postby John_Clements » Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:21 am

Hey Jeff, seems to me the katana is clearly more a grossmesser than a sabre. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I have been compiling for one of my future books an enormous wealth of material regarding Renaissance Europeans in Japan. The factual evidence of their martial encounters does not put the later in an impressive light (...which helps explain why we never seem to ever hear any documental claims from them).

Modern ideals about samuria and their weapons and fighting skills have become so surroudded in utter hype, folklore, distortion, and almost complete ignorance of historical reality that it's near impossble to discuss it with most anyone who is not astonishingly well read. It will take some effort to provide sufficient reputable educational materials to correct this.

JC
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Martin_Wilkinson
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?not the same old debate

Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:12 am

John,
The Book sounds interesting, any idea of a release date?

Cheers
Martin.
"A bullet, you see, may go anywhere, but steel's almost bound to go somewhere."

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John_Clements
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?not the same old debate

Postby John_Clements » Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:22 pm

I knew someone would ask. As with all the many titles I am working full time on now, no. They will be out when finished. At least one this year, maybe two, followed by 2-3 next and continuing indefinatley. The subjects and titles are all historical fencing, and unique but reflecting ARMA site content. That's all for now.

JC
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Ray_McCullough
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Re: Samurai vs Europeans?not the same old debate

Postby Ray_McCullough » Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:12 pm

I definitely want this book. where are you finding your info ?, and is there any online?

Please let me know if you have time. otherwise I 'll wait on the book.
"The Lord is my strength and my shield. My heart trusteth in Him and I am helped.." Psalms 28:7


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