Thibauld Disingenuity

Old Archived Discussions on Specific Passages from Medieval & Renaissance Fencing Texts


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Jeffrey Hull
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Thibauld Disingenuity

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:48 pm

Okay, so if you look at one of the plates from Thibauld (Book 2 Tabula 11), which one may find in Armaria version (pic 14) or in Anglo's *Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe* (plate 83 and especially plate 84), then we are treated to a rather cocky picture of smiling Thibauld defeating a longswordsman with his magic-circle rapier.

So anyway, Mr Anglo does a nice job of describing the faultiness of the idea behind this confrontation.

I would only add that my main specific disagreement with Thibauld is the disingenuous nature of the portrayed confontation as shown in the upper-left part of the tabula, where Mr Rapier wards in a sort of Long-Point, while Mr Longsword wards in Ox, and thus Mr Rapier outreaches Mr Longsword with a sort of Ueberlaufen.

What? Any half-way smart longswordsman could easily ward in his own Long-Point, so I find Thibault's assertion here ludicrous. Of course the one can outreach the other when the wards have a differing reach. How pointless is that? When both fighters take similar wards of similar reach, then it is a different game.

I find this sort of portrayal ridiculous, and made all the worse as such seems the sort of thing which also unfortunately seems to lend credence to the misthinking of some modern foyning fencers, whether sporting, classical, theatrical or whatever, regarding the brute inferiority of older swordsmanship.
JLH

*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

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Allen Johnson
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Re: Thibauld Disingenuity

Postby Allen Johnson » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:21 am

Yeah I have seen this as well and usually just chalked it up to self promoting. If you are trying to sell a martial arts manual you are going to try and make yourself look as tough as possible. I suppose it "could" happen. He never mentions how good the other guy is <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
"Why is there a picture of a man with a sword in his head on your desk?" -friends inquiry

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John_Clements
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Re: Thibauld Disingenuity

Postby John_Clements » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:02 pm

There is another posibility. As these large swords were much more uncommon by this time, and skill in their use may have dropped off considerably, if not among those gentlemen and courtiers Thibault directed his work to, then among ordinary serving men. Additionaly, such soldiers would be less experienced with the foyning fence of the rapier and may not appreciate its subtle attributes or unique virtues. So, he presented some simple actions for fighting such a large weapon with a quicker, shorter, thrusting blade: avoid its cuts, draw out its swiping strokes, take advantage of its slower motions, and make counter thrusts to the openings, etc., etc. I can attest from my experience this is all certainly viable.
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