Any reviews on:"Art of Mail: How to Make Your Own"

[ChrisThies]

[Please bear in mind that I'm 3 weeks into a 6 week stretch on crutches w/a cast]. Has anyone read Mary Brewer's "Art of Mail Armor: How to Make Your Own", ISBN# 1581603061? Would this book be helpful for creating self-made mail that would be historically accurate/sufficient for wear when sparring with wood or steel blunts? Or is this work - or perhaps even the whole concept of self-made mail - only reasonable for 'costume' mail? Are there other comparable source materials on self-made mail armor? Perhaps paperback (i.e. cheaper)? Would anyone like to share their experience in self-made mail? Such as, how much of a project could an average guy complete in, say, 3 weeks? Or would you wear self-made mail sparring with wood or steel blunts? Thanks for any input.

[Casper Bradak]

It has only very poor reviews on amazon.com.
I'd almost guarantee that it only instructs on the making of 100% unhistorical butted mail, which is only good for costumes or exercise, maybe training.
You'd likely best look elsewhere.

[Jake_Norwood]

Did "butted mail" ever actually exist? The stuff seems useless to me...

Jake

[Guest]

I don't believe there are any examples of butted maille of european origin from the time when it was actually used as armor. There are some types of asian maille that were butted and some 19th century pieces from India, used more for costume than protection. I'm working from memory here, so I may be mistaken, but I'm fairly confident that all european maile from the dark ages through the late medieval period (when it was actually used for protection) was all riveted or made of alternating riveted and solid rings. There is some debate on how the solid rings were made, either forge welded or cut from flat sheets, but they are very solid and have no seperation at all. Riveting and/or using solid rings is really the only practial way to make it strong enough to hold up in combat. Even today, with our modern materials, to make a butted hauberk that is strong enough to withstand actual use, you have to use 14ga. wire or better, which makes a hauberk weigh about 30-40 lbs. Period examples made with thinner, flattened, riveted rings would weigh about half as much. For a some good info on maile armour go here:

http://www.forth-armoury.com/research/research.htm

his fellow also sells reasonably afordable, very authentic riveted maille armour, the tools to make it yourself, even "starter kits".

[Brian Hunt]

You can make really strong butted chain mail if you use a hardened stailess steel I have seen a guy make chain mail this way that you couldn't pull the links apart and they were only 16 gage. Made a nice shirt that was strong and less time consuming than riveted. For other ideas on chainmail rings you might also glance at www.theringlord.com. Knitting mail is a tedious, time consuming process. My first shirt of butted mail took me 10 months to complete. That is a lot of tv time. If I was to make another shirt though, I would probably do the alternative solid/riveted ring style.

[ChrisThies]

Thank you all for feedback - esp. for 'forth armory' info. That website has many informative (footnoted, even) articles which answered most of my ?'s. I've been told by them that they will have riveted stainless steel components in the near future. No retailer seems willing to provide 'failure' info for litigation reasons - which is reasonable in this day/age. Does anyone know of any scholarly research performed to determine 'failure' limits of historical or modern mail? Or are strength/resilience assumptions of historical mail based upon narrative accounts and/or inference based upon inspection of already damaged historical pieces (I haven't yet had the opportunity to read Thordemann's "Armour from the battle of Wisby, 1361")? Has anyone tried to make an 'aventail' for use attached to a modern 3 weapon fencing mask? If so, what size/type of links? Thanks.

[Brian Hunt]

I personally wouldn't try for an aventail on a fencing helm. I would either make a leather backing for the helm, much like a lobster tail sallet, or I would build a helmet from scratch. Chain mail gets a lot of movement going with it. And I would think that the movement of the head would really get it moving around alot. Just my opinion. Do with it what you will.

Brian.

[DonaldHarrington]

Although not a benchmarked failure test, there is a fascinating segment in Hank Reinhardt's video on Viking Swordfighting (whose exact title I don't have to hand).

He vigorously hacks at a joint of meat with a sword, doing impressive damage. He puts mail over the meat and hits it again, doing (in my opinion) even more damage, certainly cutting through the mail. Although the cutting wound in the meat is smaller, it is filled with broken and imbedded rings.

A gambeson under the mail is best - although the sword blow still cuts through the mail, the damage is dispersed so no wounding of the meat takes place (probably a lot of bruising).

This is only a data point and I don't know what kind of mail was used which could make a big difference in how you could interpret it. It does show that it is possible, sometimes, to break through some mail with a sword blow.

I'd never wear mail without a gambeson, I'll tell you that. Besides, I found the video very entertaining so it's just fun to talk about it.

Don Harrington

[ChrisThies]

I think you're right Brian about the aventail flopping about on a fencing mask. I was trying to think of a method to protect both neck and exposed back of head. I'm now thinking that a gorget (like the one currently posted/pictured on forum) is the better option for neck protection - and not turning back on sparring partner.

[Brian Hunt]

Chainmail being flexible is not a good protection against sharp thrusts. It gives with a blow, unlike plate. I prefer a rigid throat defense for rapier. I use a abs plastic gorget myself, or I would use a steel gorget. If you boil leather, it makes a great throat protection as well, but I am not fond of the standard leather dog collar style gorget a lot of people use. As for the back of your fencing helmet, a piece of heavy leather works well. Or you might try something like a leather fencing helm like I have seen at this website. http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/leatherhelm_gerhard/
or here is another idea for back coverage on a fencing helm.
http://www.hema.freehomepage.com/sparringhelm.htm
just some alternative ideas. Good luck.

[Casper Bradak]

I haven't seen Hanks video. Did he use butted mail or riveted in the tests? I've been experimenting with that, and butted mail almost always tears apart under my cuts, but the links have never "cut". The riveted that I've worked on holds up completely, except for an occasional popped out rivet due to poor quality.
Also, as mail links should be soft and bend under a cut, do you guys think stainless links would be too hard and snap, or be hard enough and hold?
From personal experience I can say that mail with a gambeson will keep you pretty well protected from a foiled rapier, but I'm a big advocate of not wearing actual armour unless you're training includes the armour. Wearing armour for extra heavy protection but pretending your not could make for deadly bad habits. You're best off using good padding, in my opinion.

[Brian Hunt]

Oh, I agree that a padded gambeson and a chainmail shirt would protect you greatly against any rapier simulators I have fenced against. I was speaking of chain mail as a protection for the throat. I was just stating that when I do rapier combat I prefer a rigid throat protection, as opposed to something more flexible like chain, or untreated leather.

[Casper Bradak]

Ah, I agree 100%, I guess I missed the throat part

[Brian Hunt]

Casper,

Do you do a lot of rapier? I noticed you are listing yourself in the SLC/Ogden area. I am in Price and do not currently have a rapier sparring partner and was wondering if you would be interested in occasionally getting together?

Brian Hunt.

[DonaldHarrington]

Casper Bradak asked " I haven't seen Hanks video. Did he use butted mail or riveted in the tests?"

I had the same question in my mind when I was posting originally. I honestly can't remember, so I'll dig the video out , watch it again, and post which he was using.

By the way, if anybody has the chance to buy some butted aluminum mail cheap - don't. The metal is so soft that links pop off just from regular wear. (At least I could find my way home by following the trail of bent links.)

Don Harrington