Counter to shield knock with large shields

[Jon Pellett]

Anyone who has read Stephen Hand's article on large shield use in SPADA II will remember a technique he showed, a form of shield knock, to use against a large centre-grip Viking-style shield held face forward. In brief (I hope I'm not describing it wrong), holding your shield with the edge forward, you drive the rim into the upper right side of your opponent's shield face, rotating it to face right (from his perspective, left from yours.) This opens up his left side, while at the same time your shield pins his right arm.

Now some people are taking this as a pretty much unbeatable method of attacking a face-forward guard with a Viking-style shield. While it certainly looks effective, I tend to think that every technique has a counter. I know quite a few people who work with shields use a closed or face-forward position as well as a open position. I thought here was probably a good place to ask. Can anyone explain the counter(s) to this?

Thank you

Cheers

[Stacy Clifford]

I haven't seen the article you mentioned, but from the way you described it I can see at least one obvious counter anyway. Since you're specifically using a center-grip shield, it's going to be used like a large, heavy buckler, as a metal fist. If you move the shield to punch at his edge, he'll hit close to the middle of your shield and won't turn it very much. If the shield gets turned anyway then that one does sound hard to counter, but if your sword is high in vom tag then it won't necessarily be pinned by this move and you could possibly bring it over your head for a countercut on your left or a hanging guard. Of course, quick feet can also solve all sorts of hairy problems.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

There are two things that can be done to make the shield-edge bash ineffective. First is in shield construction. A simple strap put running from the top to the bottom that (assuming the shield is being held in the left hand) goes on the right side of the arm (so you lace you arm through the strap to grab the grip) will make the shield not twist in your hand. It is a simple addition and quite effective. Second, from either shield situation, having the strap or not, once committed to the attack with the shield, the attacker has a limited amount of attacks to make. It will be a Zornhau, a Mittelhau, or an Unterhau. A Zwerchhau thrown at the collision (indes) of the shields will stop any of those attacks. The threat to the face will cause him to fall back, or the injury that insues from a connecting attack will end the bout and you can find someone else on the battle field (you could assume that he would be fast enough on the shield to pull it back to block your blow, if that is the case you have also won the interchange, as you are still alive).

[Henri de La Garde]

Do you feel a Zwerchau couldbe effective with a one-handed sword? I really would like to know if anyone has any knowledge of manuals mentioning zwerchauen or something similar with an arming sword or later period one-handed weapon.

[Stacy Clifford]

I've done a bit of test cutting with a single hander, and while a zwerch with one may not be the most powerful cut, you can still get quite a bit of torque on it with your elbow and forearm. Not enough to crack a helmet, but more than enough to damage somebody's face or ring their bell. A good traverse will add to the force, naturally. It's also going to depend on whether you do your zwerch with the true or false edge, right side or left, and how skilled you are with each. It's surprising sometimes how much damage a weak-looking cut can do if you execute it well.

[Jay Vail]

I've done a bit of test cutting with a single hander, and while a zwerch with one may not be the most powerful cut, you can still get quite a bit of torque on it with your elbow and forearm. Not enough to crack a helmet, but more than enough to damage somebody's face or ring their bell. A good traverse will add to the force, naturally. It's also going to depend on whether you do your zwerch with the true or false edge, right side or left, and how skilled you are with each. It's surprising sometimes how much damage a weak-looking cut can do if you execute it well.

Second that. Mike Cartier says that the movement is also present in some German messer manuals.

[Henri de La Garde]

If Mike Cartier is around, and wouldn't mind hunting up the source, I'd really appreciate it.
I'm also wondering about this:
Ignoring the force aspect, isn't the action of the right hand in a Zwerchau critical to guiding the blade? As noted in numerous modern works, the best way to ensure proper blade alignment with the target is to use the right thumb on the grip or some similar turning of the hand. I believe this is even shown in the most recent of the videos on the training videos page.

I think there might be some other valid counter to a correctly executed shield knock, but I don't feel the one handed Zwerch is advisable. It puts the sword in an uncontrollable position, and it doesn't answer to the opponent's negation of your own shield.
I advise instead a quick withdrawl of one's sword and shield, and a quick counter with another shield knock of one's own.

(edited because I was wrong...)

[Henri de La Garde]

OK, nevermind, I answered my own questions.
Ringeck in his section on sword and buckler advises a Zwerchau, and I think Meyer has it as well which may be one of the other sources mentioned.
The Ringeck version I have is Christian Tobler's, and for others with that version, it depicts a mittelhau and a succession of Zwerchauen to open up an opponent with a strongly centered sword and buckler, in a position similar to a shield knock minus the extension of the sword.
So, my bad, there's no disputing the manuals....

Still, as Jon said, the SPADA article contains 'a form of shield knock' and not exactly a shield knock as described by Hand in some of his other publications. I think it might be more accurately called a 'shield jam', as it interrupts the attack in midstroke.
For someone working inside Hand's system, I guess one other counter might be this:
1) switch your shield to a middle or inside ward
2) allow your sword arm to move behind your body
3) keep the sword moving in an arc around your head from behind, and perform a thrust over your head and down into the opponent's neck or chest
4) step forward while doing this, moving rapidly to jam any attacks to your briefly open left side by closing the distance so that were he to launch a zornhau, for example, his hilt would fall on the outer edge of your shield (held at this point in a middle ward) and the blade wouldn't contact you.

This only works if your shield is not too far away. If , as you said, you are holding the shield face forward in a basic middle ward already, he may not have the opportunity to attack in the first place.
If as described in the article, the shield is too far on the left side of your body, where it can do you no good, then what I've described above is really not useful.
Just my guess anyhow....

[Jon Pellett]

Thanks for the help everybody. I think I understand most of it.

There are two things that can be done to make the shield-edge bash ineffective. First is in shield construction. A simple strap put running from the top to the bottom that (assuming the shield is being held in the left hand) goes on the right side of the arm (so you lace you arm through the strap to grab the grip) will make the shield not twist in your hand. It is a simple addition and quite effective. Second, from either shield situation, having the strap or not, once committed to the attack with the shield, the attacker has a limited amount of attacks to make. It will be a Zornhau, a Mittelhau, or an Unterhau. A Zwerchhau thrown at the collision (indes) of the shields will stop any of those attacks.

The arm strap is out, I think, because you want the shield to be able to rotate freely. I'm not sure how a zwerch would work, though. Is this a zwerch from the left? What exactly will happen? (Also, the attack can be, and in the article is, a thrust.)

Cheers

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

The strap is not out. The shield needs to rotate freely, but only as freely as your arm. I am not talking about a tight lashing to your arm. You still need to be able to use the effective properties of the center-punch shield. What I have seen is the same strap that is used to hold the shield to the back of the warrior in travel is the same strap that is used to prevent the "edging" attack. I spent too much time trying to find a picture of what I am talking about on the net. I have it on my round shield, but I don't have a camera. It is a simple loose strap that tightens against probably mid arm at the desired angle of the fighter, you can tighten and loosen the strap as you like. you can still hold the shield 90 degrees to your arm, and have full rotation ability. But, when in a standard cover stance and your right edge (assuming you are fighting with shield in left hand) is pushed in, the strap will tighten and not be swivelled in your hand. A thrust is always an option. However, assuming the shield doesn't swivel it will be harder to accomplish. The Zwerch would be from the left with a traverse. Coming around your head, and with a slight downward pitch to the blade, that will bring the strike right into the opponents neck area. enough to defeat anyone. As you traverse, your shield will move with you and all other attacks by the foe will be blocked. (I may be describing this poorly, it is actually a simple maneuver).

[Jon Pellett]

Thanks Jeremiah. I'm still not sure what you mean with the strap arrangement, but I see how the zwerch would work, that does make sense.

Cheers

[Brian Hunt]

I believe he is discussing a guige strap. A strap attached to your shield that is used to carry the shield from your shoulders. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guige

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

http://www.paulushectormair.com