fighting with folding knives

[Allen Johnson]

An aquaintence approached me about techniques that they could use in self defence using a modern folding kinfe. (single edged, sharp point, blade about 4" long, total legnth about 9") I have Jay's book but I'm wondering since the legnth is quite a bit shorter that many things might not work. Any advice on which historical techniques work with modern knives? Or any other sources?

[Jason Taylor]

Personally, I think that the folding knife is a very different animal from the dagger. I'm sure there's a lot of carry over, but I've heard dagger lengths as long as 18", which would mean at least a 12-13" blade. That would make for a phenomenally large folding knife.

My advice is to learn knife. Any kind. The best way to do this, in my mind, is to get some light gloves, make a couple of trainers of your favorite design (be sure they're light, since pocketknives are usually less than a half-pound) and a good primer book or video. Go for a freestyle system, rather than an Asian one or a dagger system to start, IMO, if you're not especially interested in dagger per se. I started out with Janich's first book (I forget the name right now) but I really learned the most from the Cold Steel Warrior's Edge videos.

Mind you, I haven't read Jay's book, so it might transfer quite nicely. In fact, I'm sure it does; I'm planning on ordering it as my next WMA library purchase. But if you want to go straight to pocketknife, I'd probably try a generic route like that one first.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Jay Vail]

An aquaintence approached me about techniques that they could use in self defence using a modern folding kinfe. (single edged, sharp point, blade about 4" long, total legnth about 9") I have Jay's book but I'm wondering since the legnth is quite a bit shorter that many things might not work. Any advice on which historical techniques work with modern knives? Or any other sources?

We have practiced the techniques in the book (and some not included in the book) with an aluminum tactical folder waster. There aren't many that didn't work with this size of waster. Some, such as the shield covers, of course depend on the length of the blade. It's hard to do those with the little blade. There are a few others as well. But you can do all the disarms, for instance, with the tac folder.

So for the most part you can rely on the historical techniques as a base from which to fight against or with the tactical folder. As with any set of techniques, you must adapt them to the constraints of the weapon.

[Jay Vail]

Personally, I think that the folding knife is a very different animal from the dagger. I'm sure there's a lot of carry over, but I've heard dagger lengths as long as 18", which would mean at least a 12-13" blade. That would make for a phenomenally large folding knife.

My advice is to learn knife. Any kind. The best way to do this, in my mind, is to get some light gloves, make a couple of trainers of your favorite design (be sure they're light, since pocketknives are usually less than a half-pound) and a good primer book or video. Go for a freestyle system, rather than an Asian one or a dagger system to start, IMO, if you're not especially interested in dagger per se. I started out with Janich's first book (I forget the name right now) but I really learned the most from the Cold Steel Warrior's Edge videos.

Mind you, I haven't read Jay's book, so it might transfer quite nicely. In fact, I'm sure it does; I'm planning on ordering it as my next WMA library purchase. But if you want to go straight to pocketknife, I'd probably try a generic route like that one first.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

First, we have to remember when we choose a system or approach that there is little if any "knife fighting" in the real world, if you envision by that two guys facing off with knives and dueling away. Many commentators have remarked that knife attacks typically are assassination attempts where one guy jumps the other with a knife and the victim is unarmed. My experience as a police reporter and having interviewed many knife victims confirms this. Also, google "knife attack" and videos and you will find dozens of knife attack videos -- real attacks -- posted on the web. There is only one that I have seen (at comegetsome.com) showing two guys actually dueling with knives.

So you will want to pick a system that trains you for this surprise attack. The historical unarmed defenses prepare you as well or better than anything I have come across in 35 years of martial arts training. In fact, you can see in the posted videos people instinctively using techniques depicted in Fiore (for instance) to disarm their attackers. And I personally have met people who have protected themselves against a knife attack using techniques described in the manuals.

I have one of Janich's books. I thought it was okay, but now that I have had a chance to get into the historical material, I think it has some impractical ideas in it, and I would be cautious with it. One big concern is that Janich's book seems to suffer from that of many other modern books in that it is a "dojo" style that does not appear to have resulted from real world combat experience. This is a great weakness.

If you want to start with a modern source, I recommend Cold Steel, by John Styers. There are some things in it I disagree with (such as his ready or guard position), but otherwise, it's a sound book, and advocates a fight that is astonishingly almost identical to that advocated by George Silver 400 years ago. I have fought many a training bout with Styers' method and I have found it very reliable.

If you take what Styers/Silver have to say and add historical methods on top of it, you have a really formidable duelling system, IMO.

If you are training alone, tho, you have to find your own way.

[Jason Taylor]

First, we have to remember when we choose a system or approach that there is little if any "knife fighting" in the real world, if you envision by that two guys facing off with knives and dueling away. Many commentators have remarked that knife attacks typically are assassination attempts where one guy jumps the other with a knife and the victim is unarmed. My experience as a police reporter and having interviewed many knife victims confirms this. Also, google "knife attack" and videos and you will find dozens of knife attack videos -- real attacks -- posted on the web. There is only one that I have seen (at comegetsome.com) showing two guys actually dueling with knives.

So you will want to pick a system that trains you for this surprise attack. The historical unarmed defenses prepare you as well or better than anything I have come across in 35 years of martial arts training. In fact, you can see in the posted videos people instinctively using techniques depicted in Fiore (for instance) to disarm their attackers. And I personally have met people who have protected themselves against a knife attack using techniques described in the manuals.

I have one of Janich's books. I thought it was okay, but now that I have had a chance to get into the historical material, I think it has some impractical ideas in it, and I would be cautious with it. One big concern is that Janich's book seems to suffer from that of many other modern books in that it is a "dojo" style that does not appear to have resulted from real world combat experience. This is a great weakness.

If you want to start with a modern source, I recommend Cold Steel, by John Styers. There are some things in it I disagree with (such as his ready or guard position), but otherwise, it's a sound book, and advocates a fight that is astonishingly almost identical to that advocated by George Silver 400 years ago. I have fought many a training bout with Styers' method and I have found it very reliable.

If you take what Styers/Silver have to say and add historical methods on top of it, you have a really formidable duelling system, IMO.

If you are training alone, tho, you have to find your own way.

Actually, by suggesting learning knife=vs.-knife sparring, I don't mean it in the sense that knife duelling is a common occurrence. It's actually incredibly rare, so much so that I don't think of the knife on knife scenario as a really meaningful training goal, but rather as a drill. Practicing against a like weapon teaches you to strike, countercut, void, etc., which gives a basic dexterity for any other kind of knife use in the future. That's kind of the way I take it. I don't have too much trouble adapting those techniques and that skill set to multiple opponents, unlike weapons, or unarmed opponent/weapon retention scenarios. I guess I'm treating it more like a basic structure, from which you can incorporate whatever specific self-defense stuff you want to.

Honestly, though, I don't consider the knife a really reliable weapon of self-defense. If I use it against an unarmed opponent, the likelihood of me going to jail is pretty good, especially since I'm practiced with it. If I use it knife-on-knife, I'm likely not going to know about his until it's too late. Etc. But it's not too bad an approach if you just want to learn the weapon for its own sake (as I did).

Jason

[Allen Johnson]

thanks alot guys! Appreciated.