Best Inexpensive Blunt Rapier & Small Sword

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Thomas Pancoast
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Best Inexpensive Blunt Rapier & Small Sword

Postby Thomas Pancoast » Wed May 16, 2007 8:36 pm

What are the best inexpensive rapiers and small swords on the market
today? Anyone know if the Paul Chens or the Cold Steels are any good?


Thanks in advance!
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Jason Taylor
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Postby Jason Taylor » Sat May 19, 2007 3:30 am

I have a small sword from Cold Steel, but I can tell you that it ain't even close to blunt. That is one nasty tip. As far as quality goes, though, it's great, great balance, weight, etc. They make good stuff.

Jason
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Brian Hunt
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Postby Brian Hunt » Sat May 19, 2007 11:16 am

The closest thing I have found to a decent blunt rapier is one of Darkwood Armouries practical rapiers. Even then they tend to be a bit noodly. I don't know of a good blunt rapier and I have tried a lot of the blades on the market. Paul Chens practical rapier blades are somewhat noodly and tend to become more so under heavy use. That is why I started using fiberglass rapier simulators, I can't find a blade that meets my needs for a good rapier blunt. If I were to go with a paul chen rapier blade, I would buy my own blade here http://www.amfence.com/html/hanwei.html preferably the 43" and make my own hilt, grip, and pommel. Since most people can't do that, I would reccomend buying the hilt parts and the pommels to go with them from either Amercian Fencing Supply or the Zen Warrior Armoury. I prefer swept type hilts for rapiers, though you could also go with a cup type hilt. This allows you to create a weapon of your own choosing for a lot less than a Darkwood, but you will not have as nice of blade, but would be an OK, inexpensive starter weapon.

As for small swords, they are not my area of study so I can't make a reccomendation there, but if I were to take up small sword, I would probably go with a musketeer blade with a small sword hilt. Having used a musketeer blade (essentially an over-engineered epee blade) I think that these are light and stiff enough to make a good practice small sword. You should be able to find a 35" musketeer blade here http://www.zenwarriorarmory.com/04_SCAblades.htm then I would buy the hilt parts from here http://www.amfence.com/html/parts_armoury.html I would go with the pommel, handle, quillions, and guard for this weapon http://www.amfence.com/html/436.html IMO, this should give you a nice practice small sword for a decent price, around $160.00 plus whatever shipping and handling would cost. You may need to do some filing and thread modification - I am unsure since I have only thought about this project but haven't gotten around to it yet.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
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Shane Smith
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Postby Shane Smith » Sat May 19, 2007 12:09 pm

We in VAB own and use the Chen foiled rapiers but we too find them way too flimsy. We prefer wooden rapier wasters.
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Benjamin Smith
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Postby Benjamin Smith » Sat May 19, 2007 3:17 pm

Someday Albion will come out with their Maestro line Capo Fero and Angelo designs and if they are as good as their Meyers & Liechtenauers they should do (I wouldn't expect those for at least a year though, maybe two).

Also I don't know how the Arms & Armor blunt rapier compare. They however are really expensive ($600 minimum).
Respectfully,

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David Kite
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Postby David Kite » Sun May 20, 2007 9:49 am

Benjamin Smith wrote:Also I don't know how the Arms & Armor blunt rapier compare. They however are really expensive ($600 minimum).


I have no idea how A&A rapiers handle, but here is a picture of their training blunt.

http://www.armor.com/train6004.html

To me, this looks way too flexible for ARMA's preferences, since I would assume that this flex also means there will be quite some flex during binding and winding as well.

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JeremyDillon
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Postby JeremyDillon » Sun May 20, 2007 9:01 pm

I've had a lot of good use out of Darkwood Armory practice rapiers. They're ideal for free play,durable and safe, but are a bit whippy. The blades are also fairly inexpensive and easy to change out should one break (something I haven't actually experienced, even though we've been using the same blades for well over 2 years). I'm sure an A&A would be fantastic, but the price is a bit high (I'm actually expecting my A&A cavalier rapier tomorrow, which doesn't actually pertain to this subject, I'm just very excited). I've had bad experiences with other pieces in the HanWei Practical line (a single handed sword recently snapped at the tang during some light free play) so I'd be skeptical about buying any rapier blades from them. )
Last edited by JeremyDillon on Sun May 20, 2007 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Axel Pettersson
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Postby Axel Pettersson » Mon May 21, 2007 3:01 am

Benjamin Smith wrote:Someday Albion will come out with their Maestro line Capo Fero and Angelo designs and if they are as good as their Meyers & Liechtenauers they should do (I wouldn't expect those for at least a year though, maybe two).

Also I don't know how the Arms & Armor blunt rapier compare. They however are really expensive ($600 minimum).


i got to handle the Capo Ferro last fall (lving in the same country as Peter Johnson is a blessing), or atleast one version of it (I think there has been added somweight further up the blade now), and even though Im no experienced rapierist, I atleast know a real cool blade when I hold it :). It had alot more substance and heft to it than the hanwei sparring rapier out now aswell, something I liked.

I think Hans Jornlind has had his darkwood rapier for 5 or so years, and it still holds up.

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Postby Carlos » Wed May 23, 2007 4:02 am

Hi,

I'm new on this forum and I have learned you're looking for inexpensive small swords.

Have a look at these videos http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0uJ72M3udM or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTg79LjK4mo
probably they could meet your requirements.
Last edited by Carlos on Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

Kevin R. Cashen
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Postby Kevin R. Cashen » Wed May 23, 2007 7:13 am

As a maker who has been dabbling with rapiers with a desire to produce better ones, I would welcome any input from those with more experience in their use than I currently have. Even with my experience I can tell there are few replicas being done well as none that I have yet handled seemed to feel like originals. One of my interests in ARMA is the invaluable link that has been lost to history between the swordsmith and the real sword user.

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Benjamin Smith
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Postby Benjamin Smith » Wed May 23, 2007 7:51 am

It's good to hear that! Some of the best makers in the business go out of their way to make better products for modern swordsmen by having experienced martial artists test them. Most low quality makers neither do their research nor correspond with people who've handled originals and know how to use them. And I can tell you anyone here would be more than happy to try out any of your products and give you feedback. Unfortunately not very many of us have all that much experience handling historical rapiers, expensive trips to Europe, connections with people who are willing to let us hold them, make it little more than a dream for most of us. I know John Clements had considerable experience with them though, he's handled dozens. Anyone else here?
Respectfully,



Ben Smith

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Brian Hunt
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Postby Brian Hunt » Wed May 23, 2007 9:26 am

Hi Kevin,

I have had the opportunity to handle a few antique rapiers, and I love rapier as a weapon. One of the biggest failings I see with most rapiers on the market is the cross section and stiffness of the blade. Most are built to easily bend as if they are an extra heavy foil and therefore are nothing more than steel noodles. The other problem I see is that the distal taper is never even close to correct. Either it doesn't taper at all until the very end of the blade, or they start too thin at the ricasso and do a straight taper to the point. The antique rapiers I have seen and handled all start off pretty thick at the ricasso, sometimes almost a 1/2 inch thick though about 3/8 seems about average, and dramatically taper over about the first 2/3rds of the length of the blade then flatten out and stay at about that thickness till it gets to the tip, which actually seems to thicken a little. I am sure there are variations, but of the 10-15 I have handled, they all seem to follow along these lines.

When fencing or fighting the biggest thing I want from a rapier is that it is quick in my hand and the point easily goes where ever I want it to without having to fight the blade, but still has just enough weight to still perform a percussive cut if I need to. As JC has said to me in the past, historic rapiers easily point at their targets as if they are a laser pointer. They need to be easy to get online and have an amazing amount of control so they are easy to keep on line, even when quickly changing guards or stepping. I have yet to handle a replica or a flexi-rapier that meets what I desire in a rapier, the closest flexi-rapiers I have found to this are the ones that I have hilted myself.

They should be stiff, but tough so they don't easily break. If a rapier is too flexible at it's weak, then it is easily taken off line by your opponent puting a little pressure on your blade and causing it to bend. A good rapier should be able to handle fencing against a longsword without breaking, but should not be overly heavy (2 to 4 lbs, though I prefer mine somewhere around 2 1/2 to 3).

Some rapiers can cut, and other didn't even have much of an edge. I like ones that have enough of an edge that I can do some cutting with it, but I don't expect a rapier to do heavy damage with a cut, they are primarily designed for the foining style of fence rather than chopping. If I want to chop, I will go with a cut and thrust or a arming sword, not a rapier.

I like a long rapier, something with about a 42-44 inch blade, so that when hilted, the whole thing comes in somewhere around 48-50 inches overall. I would be very happy with something that came in aroung 52 inches, but I am rather tall. The disadvantage to a longer weapon is that once someone gets past your point, it is harder to regain your measure and get the point back on them. Some people like shorter rapiers with about a 37 inch blade, these weapons are very subjective to individual fighting styles and ideas.

Balance points are important to rapiers, on a lot of the measurements for rapiers I have seen they have an average balance point at about 23% of the way down the weapon from the pommel no matter what their length or weight. Most of the weights I have seen have them inbetween 2.5 to 3 pounds.

And of course it goes without saying that a rapier should be astetically pleasing to the eye, whether it has a cup hilt or a swept hilt, as well as pleasing to the hand.

Unfortunatly large groups like the SCA have a great deal of pull on the market so blunts are made to meet the needs of their game, and most manufacturers try to make their sharps along similar lines. I would love to have a well made sharp and an identical blunt for my own training, but have yet to find anything that truly meets my needs. So much so that I have been planning to forge my own blades as soon as I get finished making equipment to heat treat a 48 - 52 inch blade in what little spare time I can spare that isn't already used up by my spare time for other projects.

Having held a couple of your blades, a small sword and a short rapier I believe you have the ability to make a fine weapon for our needs. The small sword was beautiful and was something I could have easily used in a fight. The rapier was nice but too short for my personal wants and needs. If I can be of any help in your reseach, feel free to contact me. You should still have my email.

Glad to see an interest in rapiers.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
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Tuus matar hamsterius est, et tuus pater buca sabucorum fundor!



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Chiara D
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Postby Chiara D » Wed May 30, 2007 9:40 pm

The posts above were helpful, but I have a specific question.

I'm about to purchase a practice rapier for my daughter (graduation present).
She's had 2 years of foil fencing, is 5'9", and very athletic.
At this point my plan is to purchase a practice rapier from Darkwood Armory (I was very glad to see them mentioned in this thread), probably a 38" blade (I really don't want one that is too whippy for her).
I know that this approach may be a bit bass-ackwards, but there is a symbology in us getting her one at this point...
...and I want to buy her a functional practice weapon since I know she wants to learn rapier.

Any suggestions?
(the kid IS headed to college, so a good inexpensive weapon would be great)
I've heard that HanWei blades tend to inconsistencey and I looked at Del Tin, but the prices were a bit higher than I'd prefer for a starter piece.

I'm new to the rapier so any suggestions would be appreciated.

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Gene Tausk
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Postby Gene Tausk » Wed May 30, 2007 9:54 pm

Chi wrote:The posts above were helpful, but I have a specific question.

I'm about to purchase a practice rapier for my daughter (graduation present).
She's had 2 years of foil fencing, is 5'9", and very athletic.
At this point my plan is to purchase a practice rapier from Darkwood Armory (I was very glad to see them mentioned in this thread), probably a 38" blade (I really don't want one that is too whippy for her).
I know that this approach may be a bit bass-ackwards, but there is a symbology in us getting her one at this point...
...and I want to buy her a functional practice weapon since I know she wants to learn rapier.

Any suggestions?
(the kid IS headed to college, so a good inexpensive weapon would be great)
I've heard that HanWei blades tend to inconsistencey and I looked at Del Tin, but the prices were a bit higher than I'd prefer for a starter piece.

I'm new to the rapier so any suggestions would be appreciated.


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Postby Chiara D » Wed May 30, 2007 10:26 pm

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