dueling shields

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Nathan Dexter
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dueling shields

Postby Nathan Dexter » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:15 pm

does anyone have any experience? if so I would like to have your insight.
Nathan
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Jason Taylor
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Re: dueling shields

Postby Jason Taylor » Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:55 pm

Nathan Dexter wrote:does anyone have any experience? if so I would like to have your insight.


Can you narrow that one down a bit?
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Nathan Dexter
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Postby Nathan Dexter » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:22 am

any practice or extensive research experience. I think they are a valuable aspect of medeival skill that most of us are overlooking.
Nathan

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Jaron Bernstein
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Postby Jaron Bernstein » Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:54 am

Nathan Dexter wrote:any practice or extensive research experience. I think they are a valuable aspect of medeival skill that most of us are overlooking.


Were they used for anything besides judicial duels?

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Nathan Dexter
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Postby Nathan Dexter » Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:33 am

I don't belive so, in talhoffer, they are only used for judicial duels.
Nathan

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Paul Macdonald
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Postby Paul Macdonald » Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:43 pm

Gentlemen,

This is one specific area in WMA I have spent a bit of time on with research and practice and am happy to offer some input.

I made my first pair of Mk.1 duelling shields in 1998/9 for the purposes of practical research and use and they saw plenty of it.
They served well over years but now lie in retirement and seem grateful for the rest.

The second improved pair were made around 2004 and have also seen quite a bit of use. On the back of the study and practice, I also had the pleasure of teaching what has probably been the first duelling shield workshop at the ISMAC event last year.
Shields were commissioned to be made in advance (a bit much to take 8 shields over from Scotland) and worked well for the day where there was 1hr of single shield work, 1hr of shield and mace and 1hr of shield and longsword.

All participants were knackered but happy by the end :)

It is a weapon like any other with its own specific technical and tactical approach. Very strong and direct (like any true German weapon) and entirely unique.
The clashing of the shields before you is like thunder.

Tremendous stuff. And like any other specific weapon, must be experienced to be really understood.

A Teutonic experience like no other. Aye, the Germans were good for some things ;)

Yours Very Truly,

Macdonald

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Brian Hunt
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Postby Brian Hunt » Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:16 pm

Mr. Macdonald,

do you have any instructions for how you built your duelling shields? It is an area of interest of mine and I have been considering building a pair, but would love to hear first from someone who has already done it.

thanks.

Brian Hunt
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Paul Macdonald
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Postby Paul Macdonald » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:22 am

Hi Brian,

Well, it is first neccessary to look at all existing treatise references to these lost weapons, as none survive today (that we might know of at least).

The techniques and force of actions lend us the best working knowledge from which to construct them, as you don`t want them too light or heavy for use, but they have to stand up to abuse all the same and be practically weildable.

Like any functional weapon form, using and making them to the same specs as originals is always neccessry.

With wood, the construction form and force of actions would rule out anything around 1/4 inch or less in thickness, as this would be structurally unsound for the techniques. Conversely, anything getting over 1/2 inch thick overall is simply getting too heavy to weild.

1/2 inch plywood works well enough, though if you can source sheet stock at 3/8 thick, that would be perfect in terms of weight and strength.

Looking at the original illustrations, proportion is fairly well shown and more importantly, consistent throughout the treatises.

It is clear that the shields are around the height or just a bit taller than a man. I make mine at 6 foot high overall.
Width to proportion at 6 foot high = 2 feet wide.

The main body shape is easy to replicate from the originals, with a variety of styles out there.
To be honest, I have made the single and double hook versions and find the double hook quite versatile.

The triangular long boss section is a bit more tricky, as a good fit helps a lot. If you have woodworking experience and the right tools, it should be easy enough. If you don`t, find a mate that has!

There are two main grip styles, the long single grip and the "I" or "H" shaped grip. This stops short of the boss opening ends and terminates both sides in a perpendicular strut to create a long I shaped grip.

I find this really effective for gaining even more power in thrusting. It will even allow you to thrust through another shield, though this is not the aim with most attacks anyway.

For the grip itself, you can use pine (least expensive option) of around 1 1/2 inch round, which is strong enough and needs no central strut support within the boss.

For tips, the grip itself can be extended beyond the main face on either side and rounded off for safe contact play. Don`t go too far with these (not beyond about 6 inches) as they may easily break if too long.
Be sure to secure (screw-fix or rivet with steel washers) the grip to the main face quite close to the main face ends.

Versions of the long grip style were made for the duelling shield class at last years ISMAC event at Lansing. Pictures can be seen at -
http://www.ismac.smugmug.com/gallery/19 ... #102985644

I have used steel tips on my own versions, which means that the grip does not have to extend so far. It doesn`t extend pass the boss with the I grip anyway.

Then, paint the faces in white with a bloody big red or black Teutonic cross and present yourself at your local magistrates court to offer your services ;)

Hope this helps.

All the Best,

Macdonald

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Jeffrey Hull
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Postby Jeffrey Hull » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:37 pm

Well, I must say, those dueling pavises look nicely crafted. Pretty snazzy.

Good luck in your training.
JLH

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Brian Hunt
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Postby Brian Hunt » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:08 pm

Thanks,

always nice to see what someone else has done before tackling a project myself. Looking at Color images from Paulus Hector Mair the ones he shows appears to be made of either wood or hardened leather that is edged with steel. I had been trying to decide what to make some from when this post came up. I will make my first pair in a similar manner to the very nice ones you have created, then in the future I may experiement with hardened leather.

Brian Hunt
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Nathan Dexter
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Postby Nathan Dexter » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:59 pm

I would agree that 3/8 would be slightly better than 1/2. you could also add padding of some kind to the pointy tips.

Thanks for your help!
Nathan

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Jeffrey Hull
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Postby Jeffrey Hull » Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:57 pm

Brian Hunt wrote:Looking at Color images from Paulus Hector Mair the ones he shows appears to be made of either wood or hardened leather that is edged with steel. I had been trying to decide what to make some from when this post came up.


Hey, I noticed those too in the Mair. That section, that whole manual is cool.

I have read about hardened leather as an option over a framework. I know that Native Americans made some smaller tough round shields with like rawhide stretched over framework. Maybe larger scale a similar construction would prove fast yet lasting.

I am guessing that the pavises with steel rims may be an exaggeration on the part of Mair, great fencing scholar that he was nonetheless. I should think steel rims would make the things preclusively heavy, unwieldy. I do not see such construction in earlier fencing manuals either.

Furthermore, Mair shows those shields wielded by knights in full armour -- which would be further misrepresentation, as armoured duels were usually noble duels, and the dueling pavise was for lower classes; and in any case, the dueling pavise was not designed for armoured dueling, or at least, recalling previous depiction -- Talhoffer, Kal, MS KK5013, Gladiatoria -- show men in leather or textile body suits, not armour, when wielding the things.

So again, Mair was a great scholar, but I honestly think that for some strange reason he portrayed that section in a rather over-the-top manner. That certainly does not mean that the text and the actual portrayal of any of those techniques with the shields are anything but accurate, and I am thankful Mair made such works for us to enjoy centuries later.
JLH



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Nathan Dexter
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Postby Nathan Dexter » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:04 pm

Mr. Macdonald:

How much do the shields weigh, and how did you make the maces?
Nathan

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Nathan Dexter
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Postby Nathan Dexter » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:20 pm

Also, I would think that despite the fact that they were obviously intended only for judicial duels, I'm sure there were instances when they were used for actual combat. Like when some town was invaded, and there were some of them lying around, I'm sure some people grabbed them for fighting.
Nathan

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Paul Macdonald
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Postby Paul Macdonald » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:59 pm

Mr. Dexter,

Regarding weight per shield, this is something I have not yet measured.

I did make the maces, very easily from two faces cut from ply of the basic mace profile and then slotted and nailed together, one face slotted halfway from the bottom up and the other from the top down.

This makes a mace that is the accurate general shape, but a bit lighter overall than a reall accurate piece that would be crafted from a solid piece of hardwood and shallow ground, thus giving much better mass for concussive blows.

I hope this helps for now,

Yours Very Truly,

Macdonald


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