Teutonic Knight's and horned/winged Helmets.

[Jeremiah Guffey]

Having a discussion with someone and they believe that the Teutonic knight's really wore such helmets into battle.

However it is my understanding and knowledge that such helmets throughout history were almost always ceromonial/parade helmets and not actual battle helmets since the horns/wings would provide an easy way for someone to grab/catch the helmet and basically it puts the person at risk. As well since the design of helmets and such generally lead more and more to a rounded shape for blows to glance off of them and such.

However there are taperstries and such that show teutonic knight's along with such helmets, though I'm not sure if it's authentic from the knight's time period or rather later centuries where other myths were born.

Can someone here who is more knowledgeable around such history provide me with more information about this?

[Jeffrey Hull]

Such a helm-crest was called a helmzier, and those were probably made of leather or canvass around a framework, or perhaps of a lightweight wood that was carved, painted and decorated. Those are seen in all sorts of manuscripts, circa 1200-1400 AD. Not only Teutonic Order knights but also secular knights of Germany mounted their helms with such heraldic devices, securing them with leather lashings to the apex. It is arguable whether or not helmzier were worn in combat. However, period illustrations show helmzier worn in variety of situations -- dueling, war, tourney.

[Axel Pettersson]

As a comparison, Romans and Greeks used crested helmets in battle, not horned though as I know.

[Jeff Hansen]

As a comparison, Romans and Greeks used crested helmets in battle, not horned though as I know.

I don't know about the greeks but for the romans the crests were a sign of rank. The common soldier could, in the press of battle, just look around for the guy with a shoe brush on his head to find someone in authority. IIRC whether it was oriented front-to-back or side-to-side was an indicator of rank.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Those helmzier certainly came in a great variety of shapes and characters -- horns, stars, wheels, horses, bulls, lions, wolves, unicorns, swans, dragons, maidens -- you name it.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Well, in the medieval context, these helmet crests were used to identify combatants from each other, so I believe there's a great likelihood that they were actually worn in battle, though probably only by the most famous lords and men-at-arms who wanted to tell their enemies who they were. On the other hand, it would be rare to see a man-at-arms tilting in a joust without wearing one!

BTW, it's definitely not restricted to the Teutonic Knights. If anything, the Teutonic Knights' vows of poverty would have made them less inclined to wear these crests than the average man-at-arms elsewhere in Europe, but then there are ways and excuses they could use to get around the restrictions imposed by this vow.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I think that Lafayette makes some nice points.

By the way -- I forgot these characters to add to the list of helmzier:
Hawks, leopards, wings (of course), bears, geese -- heck, anything heraldic you could find perched on top the great-helm.

Another thought : I suppose it is possible that the things were also made of like glued or laquered canvas, linen or hemp coating some kind of wicker framing beneath.

I honestly am unsure as to the exact construction of those things. If anybody finds a decent modern replica detailed in Web, please let us know.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Another thought : I suppose it is possible that the things were also made of like glued or laquered canvas, linen or hemp coating some kind of wicker framing beneath.

I honestly am unsure as to the exact construction of those things. If anybody finds a decent modern replica detailed in Web, please let us know.

Nobody's exactly sure about their construction anyway. Reenactment grous have shown that close-woven cloth (like canvas) around a framework has been proven to be a plausible way of constructing them, and so is leather around a framework; wood can also work although it takes a lot of skill in picking and working the wood to get the desired shape without making the whole thing too heavy. But we don't yet have enough information to say for sure whether any (or all) of these methods were used historically. My amateur opinion is inclined to say "all."