Arguing with someone who says rapier = estoc...

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

Hi there, could someone help me cite sources that talk about the historical differences and evolutions of rapiers and estocs? I'm talking to someone who thinks an estoc is an early rapier, and referred to as such in defense manuals... and how early rapiers were for battlefield usage...

is he right? my instinct says no, but I would love some help with sources that talk about the evolution of both and what caused what and what they were used for and all that. Thanks!

[Awesome King.]

I'm far from an expert, but I really really don't think that to be the case. The Estoc I believe is roughly the equivalent of an arming blade? A one handed sword used by knights in conjunction with a shield (Most obvious citation at the moment is probably "The Last Duel") whereas the Rapier evolved from a blade called a Spada Lato.

As I said, not entirely sure.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Okay, an estoc or "tuck" was actually a sword / weapon for armoured warfare and dueling. It was certainly not the same as the single-handed rapiers of later (16th Century+) foyning fence. A lot of the confusion about the word estoc and many other terms may be squarely blamed upon Victorian notions and specious modern "curator-speak" bandied about unthinkingly by curators, collectors, antiquarians, academics, etc. It would be nice if more of those "experts" would like read some of the source-literature to try to understand source-terms.

This helpful Moyen Francais (Middle French) dictionary decisively cites multiple 15th Century examples of its use to mean not just "long straight sword" but also specifically "sword-point"

http://atilf.atilf.fr/gsouvay/scripts/g ... 1186529790

(Just enter "estoc" and read entry ESTOC 1 for the definitions.)

I maintain that estoc could have been the same thing that the German fight-books & other sources meant by the special term kampfschwert. Thus it was anything from a dramatically tapering longsword / bastard-sword; to basically a giant spike with rondels girding the handle. Thus a weapon utilised for the half-swording methods of 15th Century European armoured fighting.

Here is a picture from Solothurner Fechtbuch (circa 1525 IMHO) of what one could call an estoc / kampfschwert

http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/sf12.JPG

Enjoy,

[John_Clements]

An estoc was designed specifically for fighting plate armor. A rapier was intended specifically for unarmored defense & duelling. An estoc (tuck or stocco) was almost always a two handed weapon usually with a secondary guard. Henry VIII's armory inventory from the 1540s makes a clear distinction in listing the two weapons.
Though they are superficially similar in both being thrusting swords, they have no connection in terms of a fighting style of foyning fence or in etymology of blade geometry. Sometimes the two terms were later used synonymously, as by 1600 short stiff single-hand estocs with common swept hilts were being employed by light cavalry and some pike infantry. This has caused some modern writers & collectors to assume estocs and repairs were all the same or derived from the earlier. If you consult some of the sword & arms books in our reading list area you will find all this explained. See also our article here, Q&A on the Rapier.

JC