New to ARMA

[jimmyc]

Hello,

Ive thought about the idea of joining ARMA. I am a member of the SCA i dont think i would leave that org. ARMA seems to be fun from what i see on the web site. How ARMA and the SCA compare? I thinking i can play in both. ok so oce i semd in my membership, what the nwxt step?

thanks
jimmyc Norwalk Wi

[Mike Cartier]

Hi and welcome, a few points..

you must use your full real name on this forum

the SCA and ARMA are at direct odds, ARMA represents a serious approach to the subject matter of Historical European Martial Arts
SCA does not.

[Nathan Dexter]

I agree with Mike. The SCA and ARMA are totally different

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hello,

Ive thought about the idea of joining ARMA. I am a member of the SCA i dont think i would leave that org. ARMA seems to be fun from what i see on the web site. How ARMA and the SCA compare? I thinking i can play in both. ok so oce i semd in my membership, what the nwxt step?

thanks
jimmyc Norwalk Wi

The SCA does a vast array of cultural and craft reconstructions. The SCA fighting system is not historically or realistically based in many ways. All that ARMA does is reconstruct historcal fencing as accurately as we can from the period source manuals. If you want to learn heraldry, brewing, sewing, blacksmithing, medieval music, and the like, then the SCA is what you want. If want to really learn to fight according to renaissance methods, then ARMA is what you seek.

[Patrick Hardin]

SCA fighting comes from more of a game mindset, ARMA training is more of a serious reconstructive mindset.

[Aaron Kavli]

There are several folks in ARMA that have SCA experience, myself included. I think you can do both SCA and ARMA, but you need to watch out for their mutual influence. My experience is that while your SCA fighting will improve with ARMA, your ARMA skills may suffer due to SCA influence.

When you study with ARMA, several things that work in SCA will get you hit. SCA has several "sportive" restrictions, such as no grappling, ignoring hits to hands and to the knee and below, and such. ARMA activities involve drills and skill development that lie outside of sparring (though we do plenty of that too). My SCA experience--realizing that every group is different--is that fighter practice is usually some light warmup and then just fighting.

When you play SCA (after doing things the ARMA way) you might find it hard to not do those things I just mentioned. I have found that some of the skills I picked up in my SCA fighting--namely timing, range, and getting used to being hit with sticks--have helped in my ARMA basics. But many other SCA things I've had to unlearn--most notable being footwork and how to actually "parry"--as they are martially unsound. SCA fights allow certain techniques to work that don't work outside the ruleset. In my last SCA fighting, I used historical techniques to good effect (especially zwerch and strikes to hand and wrist--even if not called).

The big advantage and disadvantage of the SCA is its sheer size. It is a world-wide corporation and as such implements rules for liability and general safety. There are those in the SCA that have tried to push for more martial fighting, but such changes are hard to get approved. The flip side of that is that you are never going to get hundreds of people out there for a melee in ARMA. I've been to a couple of Gulf Wars and it is a blast (leaving aside how SCA rules shape how well certain tactics would work in real battle). And to be honest, it is simply easier to find someone to do SCA than ARMA, because the SCA is ubiquitous. Though oddly I first sought out ARMA because I was the only one showing up for SCA practice.

To me, the difference between the two is intent. ARMA seeks to recreate a martial skill, whereas SCA seeks to create a themed event with some sport fighting elements. Both groups have great people in them and a good time is to be had doing either. While I think you can do both, I personally haven't had much urge to do SCA since I started ARMA. My wife has commented that that sometimes ARMA folks sound like some type of combat "laurels" focusing on the historical techniques as we do.

Another thing I'll give to the SCA is that the events are more family oriented. At SCA events there are always something for the kids to do--even if just watching the tourney. At ARMA events, you have to find something for the family to do that is not ARMA, or leave them at home. Watching drill work isn't all that fun. I'm not saying that an ARMA class should necessarily provide day care, but it is certainly an important consideration for a family guy.


As to the 2nd question...

The next step of membership is to read all the cool member articles! And of course, ARM shares the vast percentage of its work on the public site, so don't skip that stuff either. Then... it is practice! And you have a pretty good group up there in WI (depending on how far you actually are from them)

[Keith Culbertson]

I think that your explanation is very sound Aaron and second your recommendations---I too enjoyed the fun feasts, dances, music, arts and such of SCA but never entered the tourneys due to bad habits I saw there right away for what I wanted out of the fighting. I am very happy to have found ARMA for that now, but I do miss all the fun I had with my friends back in the day at Miami University in the March of the Unicorn. (The local SCA group in Cols has been usually a bit stand-offish for me unfortunately...)

mix and match as you wish, but beware pros and cons of such

[Shane Smith]

I think you can do both SCA and ARMA, but you need to watch out for their mutual influence.

The ARMA does not accept new members who are currently active in larping or fantasy-oriented groups such as SCA. Dual membership has proven to be unproductive in turning out good martially-effective fencers for the most part in our experience.

[Jonathan_Kaplan]

What about, yaknow, the type of larping that doesn't have physical combat? You know, the rock paper scissors types or the thowing pebbles at people type? Not all larping has you go at someone with padded swords... What about being in groups like SCA and not doing any of their combat stuff at all? Do you still not accept members in that case?

[Jaron Bernstein]

What about, yaknow, the type of larping that doesn't have physical combat? You know, the rock paper scissors types or the thowing pebbles at people type? Not all larping has you go at someone with padded swords... What about being in groups like SCA and not doing any of their combat stuff at all? Do you still not accept members in that case?

There are a decent number of paper (D&D, Shadowrun, Call of Cthulu, etc.) gamers in the ARMA. If you are in Kentucky you might consider contacting Andy Spalding at the Murray State University study group.

[Aaron Kavli]

I think you can do both SCA and ARMA, but you need to watch out for their mutual influence.

The ARMA does not accept new members who are currently active in larping or fantasy-oriented groups such as SCA. Dual membership has proven to be unproductive in turning out good martially-effective fencers for the most part in our experience.

Ooops. Sorry for the misinformation. I had already let my SCA membership lapse when I applied for ARMA, but I didn't realize it was an automatic disqualifier.

[Michael Navas]

The ARMA does not accept new members who are currently active in larping or fantasy-oriented groups such as SCA. Dual membership has proven to be unproductive in turning out good martially-effective fencers for the most part in our experience.

Could you elaborate on why this is?

In what way does ARMA suffer from its practitioners being of less than stellar quality? Members pay for themselves, equip themselves and train for themselves, all the while spreading the word, do they not? It sounds like membership is an investment on ARMA's behalf, and while that is certainly understandable from a scientific standpoint, it just sounds like the kind of thinking that would make ARMA kick students who didn't meet certain qualifications in a set amount of time. It doesn't AFAIK, so what makes SCA influence different?

Is it a publicity thing? That ARMA cannot afford to be represented by people of poor influence and 'corrupted' knowledge?

[Shane Smith]

The ARMA does not accept new members who are currently active in larping or fantasy-oriented groups such as SCA. Dual membership has proven to be unproductive in turning out good martially-effective fencers for the most part in our experience.

Could you elaborate on why this is?

In what way does ARMA suffer from its practitioners being of less than stellar quality? Members pay for themselves, equip themselves and train for themselves, all the while spreading the word, do they not? It sounds like membership is an investment on ARMA's behalf, and while that is certainly understandable from a scientific standpoint, it just sounds like the kind of thinking that would make ARMA kick students who didn't meet certain qualifications in a set amount of time. It doesn't AFAIK, so what makes SCA influence different?

Is it a publicity thing? That ARMA cannot afford to be represented by people of poor influence and 'corrupted' knowledge?

I am speaking for myself now and not for ARMA. One problem we have always faced in this regard is that people with dual memberships in other groups will take our resources and training methodologies and then share them with others who are not members nor do they share our passion for becoming serious, historically-accurate Swordsman. They also tend to let their fantasy role-playing bleed over into their Study Group sessions and before you know it, we have RMA taking place side by side with basket weaving and other unrelated activities.

It is difficult to keep the seriousness of our craft intact when onlookers unfamilar with us have to pick through a mob of reenactors and/or larpers wearing elf ears and/or calling each other by false titles of nobility. It cheapens what the ARMA seeks to accomplish and serves only to confuse others who would like to learn the historically-accurate methods free of the pollution of those seeking an escape from reality at the RMA's expense.

That said, I'm sure those activities can be rewarding and fun in their own right. I have no problem with anyone who engages therein as long as they make no effort to misrepresent what it is they do. Unfortunately, alot of folks learn a thing or two and then put themselves into the public eye as authorities on the subject and then they put on pathetic, martially ineffective demos that just make them and anyone associated with them look silly.

The problem is that the ARMA and role-playing just don't mix and when it's been tried, mediocrity has almost always been the result. The ARMA is about individual and organizational exceptionalism in my own experience. Our craft requires a high degree of dedication to achieve and maintain that standard. Divided attention makes for mediocre Swordsmen. We may not all become exceptional Swordsmen for whatever reason, but we can all make exceptional efforts to become the best martial artists we can be and that is enough to satisfy anyone I know in ARMA.

[John_Clements]

As a clarification here...while the ARMA has no exclusionary policy or automatic dis-qualifiers, what we are about is focusing on creating new collaborative Study Groups and committed students contributing to our larger historical fencing community and assembling like-minded associates participating in our martial curricula and certification program.

We literally receive tens of new applications each month, and membership is not automatic. We admit only a few applicants each time, evaluating each on an individual case-by-case basis. We usually prefer as new colleagues those whose energies are not directed toward contradicting efforts or whose time and interests must be divided between distracting activities. We don’t generally have an interest in folk who are already comfortably pursuing their own programs or separate efforts. Doing otherwise hasn’t worked to our benefit in the past. For one to fully commit to our subject and give it the attention it deserves and the time it demands (both physically and academically) requires accepting shared values while avoiding conflicts of interest. Our craft is a complex and challenging one and we feel our heritage deserves no less.

Hope that clears up the matter. Feel free to apply.

Cheers,

John C.
ARMA Director

[Shane Smith]

As a clarification here...while the ARMA has no exclusionary policy or automatic dis-qualifiers, what we are about is focusing on creating new collaborative Study Groups and committed students contributing to our larger historical fencing community and assembling like-minded associates participating in our martial curricula and certification program.

We literally receive tens of new applications each month, and membership is not automatic. We admit only a few applicants each time, evaluating each on an individual case-by-case basis. We usually prefer as new colleagues those whose energies are not directed toward contradicting efforts or whose time and interests must be divided between distracting activities. We don’t generally have an interest in folk who are already comfortably pursuing their own programs or separate efforts. Doing otherwise hasn’t worked to our benefit in the past. For one to fully commit to our subject and give it the attention it deserves and the time it demands (both physically and academically) requires accepting shared values while avoiding conflicts of interest. Our craft is a complex and challenging one and we feel our heritage deserves no less.

Hope that clears up the matter. Feel free to apply.

Cheers,

John C.
ARMA Director

I apologize for misinterpreting and unintentionally misrepresenting the organizations policy in this matter.