where to go with european martial arts

[nathan featherstone]

hello all,
before anyone reads this if i make any silly comments or anything please forgive me in advance.
im sure this idea has been tossed out countless times but here goes. i truly love the arma and the message it preaches. it destroys so many misconceptions relating to european martial arts. but still many people if u mention hema think your crazy yet the evidence is all here. i know for eastern arts they stayed in practice so failed to die out. i know that internationally hema is growing but is still considered by uninformed people as a lesser or sub art. what i would love is if there was some sort of international body that could help groups in contries such as mine study these arts and help keep there own indiginous european arts alive. i have set out to learn some irish types but it alone makes me truly sad to see it dying out so fast and i know when im old its likely to be gone unless something changes. i know this grand scale mission is silly in its own way as i have seen with the gracie family in brazil how a small group can make their discipline known internationally. but they were given the stage to do this through ufc and similar compettions. while european wrestling if revived properly could do this it stills puts into doubt the weaponized arts. which are most at risk i feel anyway. i know this speech might be incoherent and of little use, but i would like to know how others feel on this and the idea of somehow getting the many bodies involved in hema under one roof thats easy for the average joe to get to and learn world wide.
anyways just putting it out there all i know is here the issues of insurance and health and safety have created a losing battle in some respects for founding grassroot clubs but thank you to anyone who took the time to read this any input will be truly appreciated.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hello Nathan!

No, this is not silly in the least and if everyone in the Community gave it some more thought, might lead to positive things.

Prior to joining ARMA I did not realize that this Craft existed, (that is that these forms of martial arts had existed historically at all!), I actually remember feeling a bit pissed that it had never been explained in history classes, and that the entire subject seemed a bit "surpressed".

I thought to myself, why at age 12 I was not learning and practicing this art at some hall is beyond me! I kind of felt cheated!

What you need to remember is how important YOU, and really all of US are to this effort and what this effort is seeking to do. We are engaged in what I have coined "The archeology of violence". This naturally can be thought of in a negative way, but violence is of course sometimes a "bad" thing and sometimes a "good" thing depending on many factors. Why it's being used, against whom, for what reasons, to what degree, using what methods?- all of these questions are important and really need be answered by the Community at large, and by each individual practitioner.

Are you just having "fun" with the Craft, is it just your "hobby" do you understand it's history, it's roots, what happened to it? When you practice it do you appreciate what lessons it gives you about all these quetions, and on and on.

I think across the entire Community we are all collectively doing a very good job of spreading the message and making genuine attempts to educate the public, practice our Craft and reconstruct something that was lost. Movies such as "Reclaiming the Blade" and some other projects are making strides towards these goals.

There are of course diffrences in how we think that should be done, what skills are actually being shown in the historical record and other issues of how the Craft should be practiced. I believe this is unavoidable and natural in the way of things. If you take a number of people all very passionate about any subject, (adding in the fact they enjoy fighting) then try and come to some consensus you will of course have disagreements!-LOL

I do feel however that people who are percieved to be leaders in these pursuits do need to provide answers to the upcoming generations about the direction this Craft should take. In ARMA we feel that we have taken on this responsibility and have shown a consistant and important message. This message is simply "Do your best and allow yourself to learn".

While this message seems simple, it's actually very difficult and when people's own expectations do not match what performance they temporarily reach at some point in this journey, it can become a huge issue for everyone.

For now though many of these topics are beyond what you should concern yourself with. For now, stay involved seek answers and be willing to put forth effort. Find a place to belong, and give what you can to help everyone, remember that this is a journey and not a destination, by opening one dorr you will open another, have the courage to step in and turn on the light!- Best of luck man!- AP

[Jonathan Newhall]

I mostly agree with Aaron. Progress is a bit slow (something I feel perhaps an ARMA-everybody else gap closing would help*) but it does seem to be happening. I know I spread information about what I do to anyone who requests it and often upfront about it being one of my primary "hobbies", so to speak. I think that in a larger setting it'd appeal as sport-like activity (I say this because obviously there are no true "rules" and it is a bit dangerous when practiced properly to be a sport) encouraging fitness in addition to an intellectual activity encouraging understanding of history and analytical skills in regards to interpretations. It'd encourage people to make hypotheses and test them out. When not actually used for true violence swordsmanship is a great way to positively stress your mind and body in an appropriate way.


*Regarding this, there seems to be two "groups" out there. ARMA, and then everybody else who is respected in the HEMA community. ARMA is certainly big enough to stand on its own, as it seems to be doing, but I think a bit more integration over the years between these two "factions" would be a good goal to have. As a (relatively) impartial third party I don't see any real disagreement in method, at least these days, and while having many different factions working separately is a good idea for coming up with new discoveries quickly it also results in a bit of a splintered community. My two cents I suppose.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hello Jonathan,

Thanks for the comments. "ARMA and Everybody else"- naturally, I am biased about this perception so take that into account but I think this kind of statement is unfair.

ARMA has more information on it's public site about it's inner workings than any other group. ARMA routinely shares and explains it's findings and what new information we have and is the first group to try and go out and correct what it feels are mistakes being made in the larger community.

However, I do understand that we have held close to the chest, many of our latest translations and applications, really only from the standpoint of giving them ample time to be polished, revised and cross-checked in the application phases. I know that soon much of this info as well will be released and when it does get released, I am looking forward to, and kind of dreading the responses we will get.

In some ways, like all things- the community is becoming it's own worst enemy. With everyone having a voice it means that no one is being heard, and the messages are getting lost in the noise.

There are some that are plainly not qualified-yet, to make comments in certain areas, but they feel no qualms about "offering opinions". I know this is an area of caution and that everyone is entitled to thier own opinions. There are times however when they should be listening, practicing and reading, and then consider the question before jumping to the sharing of opinions stage.

Now not always mind you, in fact there are a number of times when brand new fresh perspectives have yeilded some amazing things, so it is without a doubt a tricky slippery slope.

In the end I think the community at large could do better at excepting us, for our differences with them and instead of chalking it up to some agenda, just understand that we want to be different for very simple reasons.

We don't hold it against any other groups for being different from us, we just feel it's important to point out the differences as these differences really define us.- AP

[Jeff Hansen]

We don't hold it against any other groups for being different from us, we just feel it's important to point out the differences as these differences really define us.- AP

Well said Aaron.

[nathan featherstone]

i just want to start in saying thank you to you all in taking the time to reply this post im grateful and gives me hope in the future of this art. there is a lot to respond to but i just want to say that the one thing i noticed with this as a martial art and compared to all others is one simple issue and addresses the last post. i hope this doesnt sound silly or anything either.
we have no masters.
now we have people who i could call that but we have none. i first encountered this with an insurance issue about setting up a fencing society in ireland. we were unable to found a club because we had no master to vouch for us. simply because there are none. this art is unlike all martial arts out there because it was not practised for a long time so there are no people with this title. so most people involved in this are helping this art begin in its infancy. i agree though that arma has its differences which are great but it would be nice if all clubs had a core set to adhere to and work with to make it more accesible. i hope that made sense. does it?

[Aaron Pynenberg]

It does make sense of course. getting started is the most difficult part. Nathan, contact me at: iceman9108@yahoo.com

I will try and give you more info. I have been to Ireland a number of times, and I am sure I will go back again soon. Get in touch with me, maybe I can be of more assistance.- AP

[Jonathan Newhall]

Hello Jonathan,

Thanks for the comments. "ARMA and Everybody else"- naturally, I am biased about this perception so take that into account but I think this kind of statement is unfair.

ARMA has more information on it's public site about it's inner workings than any other group. ARMA routinely shares and explains it's findings and what new information we have and is the first group to try and go out and correct what it feels are mistakes being made in the larger community.

However, I do understand that we have held close to the chest, many of our latest translations and applications, really only from the standpoint of giving them ample time to be polished, revised and cross-checked in the application phases. I know that soon much of this info as well will be released and when it does get released, I am looking forward to, and kind of dreading the responses we will get.

In some ways, like all things- the community is becoming it's own worst enemy. With everyone having a voice it means that no one is being heard, and the messages are getting lost in the noise.

There are some that are plainly not qualified-yet, to make comments in certain areas, but they feel no qualms about "offering opinions". I know this is an area of caution and that everyone is entitled to thier own opinions. There are times however when they should be listening, practicing and reading, and then consider the question before jumping to the sharing of opinions stage.

Now not always mind you, in fact there are a number of times when brand new fresh perspectives have yeilded some amazing things, so it is without a doubt a tricky slippery slope.

In the end I think the community at large could do better at excepting us, for our differences with them and instead of chalking it up to some agenda, just understand that we want to be different for very simple reasons.

We don't hold it against any other groups for being different from us, we just feel it's important to point out the differences as these differences really define us.- AP

I agree more or less with what you've said here. I do understand that it's easy to fall into an unwarranted group-concensus mentality when you work too closely with other organizations. It is for this reason I feel that the HEMA community should probably remain several different "schools" or "groups" who all get together on occasion and share their different findings. It seems, at least based on how it sounds from the outside, that ARMA's approach has yielded some good findings and that many of the more respected groups outside of ARMA are looking forward to seeing what ARMA has found. I know I am, for one, while my application is processed and reviewed. A free preview never hurts!

So, a "confederation" of martial arts groups I think is the best approach personally. Each independent (Clements' ARMA from Guy Windsor's school from Tobler's school, et c.) but perhaps each working together a bit more often than they are now would be nice to see. Personally I feel a middle-road attitude between strictly ARMA's opinion and the "opinion at large" elsewhere is often the best for me personally (for instance, ARMA recommends heavily against overdoing safety equipment while most other groups highly recommend having a LOT of safety equipment. I've gone a kind of middle-road with head/face, groin, and hand protection only).


Anyway, well said overall Aaron.


I agree with Nathan as well - having no living lineage in the form of "masters" really harms the reputation of Historical European Martial Arts, and this "confederation" approach I've seen and suggested wouldn't help a lot either...

[Aaron Pynenberg]

No problem Jonathan,

From what I have heard before the "Federation" thing was tried in the past. That was before my time and there's really no reason to re-visit what happened to it and why etc.

I am a believer in not letting a few set-backs get in the way of success however and so if that was something that would help the community I would be all for it.

Problem is frankly these issues among many: "what would that federation be for?" What would it's mission be? How would it help the relationships between these groups? What would dictate it's success or failure? Why is such a group needed?

On and on, these groups have each of them thier own personalities, and just to highlight the differences as relates to ARMA, in just the one's you mentioned in order: we don't believe in "mystical" properties in relation to the practice of the Arts and We are not trying to start a new religion here.

So to be fair to those groups who are doing other things any kind of "comparison" is just not relevant and can only cause more friction and turmoil. No need I say, as long as we understand that they want to do those things and we don't want to, it shouldn't be a problem.

But...what happens is that all of those seperate differences combine and show themselves when it comes down to interpretation and practice of the Craft. I see that now clearly and it's going to cause future problems for all the "Leaders" present and future.

If you look at the wide disparity in how the groups practice this should be clear. We have some groups that pad and protect themselves to the point that what they are actually practicing is Harnishfechten, without even being aware of it. Then other groups who practice with a feather light bastardized Shinia improvised with a cross. Other groups want to pretend spar, look like they are sparring, but just tag each other a bit and just have "fun". Then some others who don't want to spar at all ever!

Now I realize these remarks could be inflamatory, but they are not meant to be. It's just the truth in the manner of how we look at things all so different. There really is no reason for us to all constantly overstate how we are different. Would could be cool is if we just all gave in to the simple fact that we will all never agree on anything in terms of application, and just agree to all "belong" where we are comfortable and then "own" that decision.

If you want to pad-up to SCA like standards and get a feel for what fighting with a sword is like, go ahead, just own the fact that you are now padded up so that you are really not practicing the Craft in it's totality. All that padding and comfort makes subtle but important changes in how you and your enemy fight, so be it!

If you want to feel connected to things "mystical" and find the sword as nice outlet for those energies, then great, go for it. However understand that the realm of the mystical historically had limits and the push for more things scientific was more true to the age-especially most importantly so with fencing!

If you would like to form a Brotherhood and revisit the important chivalric idelas of that age, then that's awesome as well, but be aware that there was much more to that concept, than getting together in garb. In our newer current applications we are seeing what was really meant by being full of courage and good cheer, and stout of heart etc...and I don't think it's the same as what some other folks believe, but again that's fine as well!

In the end, I hope we all remind ourselves that there is no end. There is only the process, and if someday we all together say, OK Groups lets form a committee to declare "Masters" then I hope that this day comes for the right reasons, and not to further somebody's agenda. In reality though we all have agendas of some sort, even if it's an agenda of not having one. So let's just recognize this, own it and move on?- AP

[nathan featherstone]

im enjoying this post and its direction im very new to all this and living where i do have a very unbiased and maybe a little naive view on things. but that helps me to view things from an outside view. i do know about irish reenacting and its what helped me find the path to this art. it has exactly the same problems and issues and to me seem silly but thats life people will always disagree but in relation to wma this is the idea i propose.
this right here works what do you all think? also before i state this please no wise cracks on it or why dont you do it questions i want a general response to this.
we can come on here and chat no matter where your from.
now clubs will ALWAYS be different its how things are.
what i would like is one umbrella site with a forum like this moderated by an unbiased party.
this would allow groups all over to sign up and say here we are. this is what we do and when and where to find us. with links to sites etc
then simply call the site western martial arts.com or something.
then add to this a forum and links to suppliers manuals resources info etc.
this way we can be different yet come together on a level playing field.
added to this i would like to see competitions regional national and international. with agreed rules voted for and agreed by all groups involved.
this would give some for of interaction at a personal level and a way of improvements and so on.
now this is a very rough idea but what do people think?
would it ever work etc?

[Jonathan Newhall]

I've seen the majority of the community already seeming to have tried that, Nathan, with "swordforum international". I think it's a good resource if only because of the wide variety of groups it covers, but almost none of them have quite the martial intent of ARMA so I also make sure to get advice from here as well. The problem, I think, is that the methods still differ a bit too much to form a central community on, say, a forum, but perhaps someday soon when things are a little more standardized...

[Jaron Bernstein]

As Aaron said, there are a variety of folks looking at this art with a variety of goals and means. In terms of people and groups seriously reconstructing these fighting arts (as best we are able to) there is a spectrum ranging from good to abysmal and everything in between. I would put ARMA at the very good end of that spectrum.

Regarding organizing the modern historical fencing movement, the phrase herding cats comes to mind. If you think trying to understand the Art is enough, try getting people to work together! You might be better off finding a place/group in the WMA world that most meshes with what you are looking for and make a home there. Develop your skills and knowledge in the Art. Then maybe see about the politics of herding cats later.

[Gene Tausk]

im enjoying this post and its direction im very new to all this and living where i do have a very unbiased and maybe a little naive view on things. but that helps me to view things from an outside view. i do know about irish reenacting and its what helped me find the path to this art. it has exactly the same problems and issues and to me seem silly but thats life people will always disagree but in relation to wma this is the idea i propose.
this right here works what do you all think? also before i state this please no wise cracks on it or why dont you do it questions i want a general response to this.
we can come on here and chat no matter where your from.
now clubs will ALWAYS be different its how things are.
what i would like is one umbrella site with a forum like this moderated by an unbiased party.
this would allow groups all over to sign up and say here we are. this is what we do and when and where to find us. with links to sites etc
then simply call the site western martial arts.com or something.
then add to this a forum and links to suppliers manuals resources info etc.
this way we can be different yet come together on a level playing field.
added to this i would like to see competitions regional national and international. with agreed rules voted for and agreed by all groups involved.
this would give some for of interaction at a personal level and a way of improvements and so on.
now this is a very rough idea but what do people think?
would it ever work etc?

If you are going to have competitions "regional, national, and international with agreed rules voted for and agreed by all groups involved" you are going to have a sport. This is why sport fencing exists, for people who want to engage in a martial sport. We at ARMA, and at other groups as well, are interested in reconstructing the genuine fighting arts of our European ancestors. "Competition" has nothing to do with what we want. However, this does not mean we are not competitive. Our fighting matches are VERY intense. But, they are intense because of our commitment, fighting skills and dedication to resurrecting a martial art and science. So, long story short, if you want a sport, go to a modern epee, sabre or foil school. We are probably not want you want.

[Stacy Clifford]

Having an "unbiased party" run an umbrella site sounds well and good, but there are two major problems:

1. Finding a party who is both knowledgeable and unbiased.
2. Staying unbiased.

Because we study fighting, we're all fighters here, and fighters have a natural tendency to pick sides. Neutrality requires a certain dispassionate approach, and this subject is a decidedly passionate one, so it's very difficult to be exposed to it for a long period of time and not wind up favoring one point of view over another. Also keep in mind that running a large and busy website requires money, time, and effort. SFI started out long ago with goals similar to what you describe, but over time they began favoring certain groups and companies who sponsored or promoted their site more and squelching or downplaying unfavorable reviews of the same. Now the "in" crowd over there leaves no doubt that not everyone is welcome, even if they say otherwise. Human nature is a very unruly beast that has to be managed very carefully if you want to maintain any kind of equilibrium. If you don't have a plan to combat temptation, which you will almost inevitably face, then you will almost certainly fall to it when it comes.

[nathan featherstone]

i must say to you all great points but they are ones i have thought on.
on the issue of herding cats i don't want them to be herded i want them to admit they are cats.
i want those involved to sit down and say i do wma here i am. whatever they want to do follows but if they want others it needs to be a little more accessible. as it took me a process of over a year to even learn of arma. not anyone's fault just wma is not highly talked about and dare i say it a "respected" art. don't want to offend but hopefully someone understands that comment.
and on the issue of competitions etc.
gene you make excellent points. but if i wanted fencing i would go do it but i dont want that. to me if your learning to use a sword you use one or as similar one as you can manage. not using a piece of wire and limiting your movements and techniques.
this is a marial art but judo kendo and a giant mix of Asian martial arts thrive as sports the question i pose is why cant we? and still keep our core values. i look at jogo du pao in Portugal that teaches a real European martial art not boiled down yet is accessible as a sport and competition as well. why cant something be done to make wma accessible to a world wide audience. just even do what arma does and have any sister groups agree to a core set of values to make competitions accessible to them. i feel they would give this art somewhere to point at and say look we are a real art.
now this might "water" the art down but if it makes it more accesible well we we have more involved and still have the reall pioneers of this art striving to be as accurate and as knowledgeable as they can. how do people feel on this idea?