Off the wall question about Cod.HS.3227a

[Tim Ingersoll]

To start off I do not wish to get into a discussion of Metaphysics in this thread and if it comes to that Moderator please delete this thread as that is not my intent.

Having read the side by side translation by Lindholm and Associates, I got curious as to whether or not there might be subtle differences in the translation based on ones specific world view, so I asked a friend of mine who does translations from OHG to English to give it a once over and he became very interested when he discovered that what appears to be a side by side translation is not actually a complete side by side.

Specifically he noted that there were references to Alchemy and as he put it "Magic", included in the text. Given that it is my understanding that at the time all practice of such things was held to within the Church, thus the church would have comdemed the work of someone out side the church.

So my question is Why would they include this information?

I have a theory on this that I would like to offer along with my question.
Given that Alchemy and Magic may have been seen as a synonimus term by our standards of science and manufacturing, giving me pause to wonder if this is the Formula for the forging of swords?

Tim

[Stacy Clifford]

Definitely need to be careful not to let this topic get out of hand, but translations of manuals are on topic and we'll allow it for now under supervision. You don't give much context for what you're asking about, can you provide any links or quotes to illustrate your question?

[Tim Ingersoll]

I agree this question is a slippery slope and I do not intend it to become a mess.

I wish I could be more specific but I am awaiting his line by line translation which I am afraid may take some time. I will send you a message with the conversation for you to look at rather than simply posting it.



Tim

[Greg Coffman]

I would like to see the passage in question too. I don't think there would be any problem with you posting the passage you are referring to. This is one of the things we do in ARMA. We look at the passages and try to figure out what is going on.

[Roger Norling]

Last year I attended Claus Sorensen's lecture on Talhoffer at the Swordfish event in Gothenburg, Sweden, and from what I recall at least one of his manuscripts had quite substantial portions on alchemy and possibly even magic. How much, I really don't know and I have never seen them in any of the scans I have.

Of course, Talhoffer has a lot of other interesting content; diving suits, modular polearms and things I really can't tell what they are for...

[Adam Bodorics]

That's the Thott edition, which is available right here at ARMA. Planetary intelligences and the like. Get used to the idea that people back then were a "bit" superstitious - their Christianity isn't modern Christianity. Pretty far from it. "Chi" seems a scientifical fact compared to some historical beliefs.

[Jaron Bernstein]

To start off I do not wish to get into a discussion of Metaphysics in this thread and if it comes to that Moderator please delete this thread as that is not my intent.

Having read the side by side translation by Lindholm and Associates, I got curious as to whether or not there might be subtle differences in the translation based on ones specific world view, so I asked a friend of mine who does translations from OHG to English to give it a once over and he became very interested when he discovered that what appears to be a side by side translation is not actually a complete side by side.

Specifically he noted that there were references to Alchemy and as he put it "Magic", included in the text. Given that it is my understanding that at the time all practice of such things was held to within the Church, thus the church would have comdemed the work of someone out side the church.

So my question is Why would they include this information?

I have a theory on this that I would like to offer along with my question.
Given that Alchemy and Magic may have been seen as a synonimus term by our standards of science and manufacturing, giving me pause to wonder if this is the Formula for the forging of swords?

Tim

Hello,

You can read the complete Talhoffer including the portion you reference on this site. The question about why all the extraneous material is there has a simple answer. It wasn't purely a fecthbuch. It was what was called a "housebook" that covered a range of topics, including fighting. Talhoffer isn't alone in this. We mainly read the fighting portions of Dobringer today, but the full Dobringer or Ringeck books (I forget which one off hand) also covered magic, herbal recipes and the like. Pure fighting manuals like Capo Ferro or Meyer existed, but that edition of Talhoffer wasn't one of those.

[Tim Ingersoll]

Thank you, that makes the addition of such matterial make more sense.

Tim