Fighting and arms in Game of Thrones

[Peter Goranov]

I know most of you dislike fantasy and all the tropes and misrepresentations associated with it. But, the author of A Song of Ice and Fire has read "Medieval Swordsmanship: Illustrated Methods And Techniques" by mr. John Clements in preparation of writing his novels, in addition to other books on the medieval and Renaissance period.

His books represent things like attacking armour in the joints, halfswroding, grappling and so on. Now HBO is making a show and already I'm somewhat disappointed (the dreaded "whing~~~" noise when one pulls out a weapon out of a leather scabbard for example, or a bow cracking as if it's about to break when it's being drawn). The thing I'm most disappointed however, is that no senior ARMA member is there to tell them how a fight should really look.

Here re two videos on the matter: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM_7ccvN ... re=related and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb03X8BO ... re=related


In my line of work I've learned that being proactive and contacting people who may benefit from your services/skills is better than sitting around waiting for them to figure it out. Would it be too much if ARMA sent these guys a letter to suggest being advisers on the weapons and fighting techniques? The show has been approved for a second season by the way.

Hell, if you do that I'll write GRRM myself (we have spoken on one occasion already) and if he backs this up, which he should considering he read the aforementioned book, we can finally have one piece of Hollywood that doesn't portray sword fighting like a fight between rabid wildmen holding clubs.

[Sal Bertucci]

First off, you're wrong that most of us don't like fantasy. Many of us do, but we just realize that they are two different beasts by two very different backgrounds.

Second, you have to understand that the entertainment community DOES NOT WANT OUR OPINION on how fights should happen. Stage combat is a field to itself, and it is NOT based on reality. It's also a closed circle.

As a perfect example: for the movie "Season of the Witch" it got out that they wanted people with a RMA background as extras for "realistic fight scenes". As such a slew of ARMA members went to the casting call. You want to know how many were picked.......zero. They all lost out to people who were members of the Actor's Guild and carried their "fight choreographer" card.


Now would it be great if they listened, of course, b/c the REAL stuff looks WAY more awesome than the theatrical fighting CRAP that they use to move the plot.

The only interest that the acting community has in RMA is to find new ways to look cool. (In their own way)

[Jonathan Hill]

Sal's right many of us do enjoy the fantasy side, I even picked up the book already and am actually reading from paper, I don't do that much anymore.

First off you shouldn’t hold a grudge against the acting community. Stage combat is intended to take actors that can barely lift a sword and make them look good all while keeping them safe from doing something stupid like impaling themselves with their own sword. Most fights have to be out of distance or obviously telegraphed to keep the actors safe.

As a perfect example: for the movie "Season of the Witch" it got out that they wanted people with a RMA background as extras for "realistic fight scenes". As such a slew of ARMA members went to the casting call. You want to know how many were picked.......zero. They all lost out to people who were members of the Actor's Guild and carried their "fight choreographer" card.

This isn't too surprising you need to remember that the acting community is heavily union oriented or insider controlled. They will pick any SAG member, then anyone who is represented by an agency over anyone without representation, as those are people who will be around for the next movie. The agents will also annoy the producers to no end if they pick anyone off the street over their people. When I did extra work it was through an agency that caters to ‘cattle calls’ and if anyone truly wants to do this type of extra work you need to get with an agency. For example Central Casting in LA does a lot of work for TV shows/movies for extra’s. All you need to do is register and get in their database and you can work any shows that are coming up. If you guys are really interested in doing extra work for those type of shows I would register with an agency like Central that doesn’t charge you unless you work, then you have representation. It’s not that they don’t want your opinion, it’s that you aren’t playing the game properly. If someone without any credentials or any experience you recognize in your line of work walks in and tells you that you are doing it wrong you would throw them out too.

http://www.centralcasting.org/

[Benedict Haefeli]

As a perfect example: for the movie "Season of the Witch" it got out that they wanted people with a RMA background as extras for "realistic fight scenes". As such a slew of ARMA members went to the casting call. You want to know how many were picked.......zero. They all lost out to people who were members of the Actor's Guild and carried their "fight choreographer" card.

But to be fair, they still did a decent job. Some of the fighting in there is pretty nice. they even do a murder stroke at one time, which got most of the audience that was watching the movie with me amused... "look, he doesn't know what end of the sword is which, haha!

So one of the problems here is definitaley audience... the audience cannot really apreciate the realism, so it's understandable that producers wouldn't care for it too much.

As for Game of thrones, I'm simply glad we finally have a high-quality fantasy series for grown ups. Got to be a first in all TV-history, that. I can forgive the stage fighting, at least they're keeping it fittingly visceral.

[Tomm Skotner]

There is another thing. We think real techniques are awesome to watch to some extent because we know them. We recognize them and can appreciate how they are done. And I am sure that if audiences in general could realize how they are done too, they would enjoy seeing fight scenes with historical techniques as much as we probably would. But they clearly don't.

When you do show fights you need to slow things down and use big movements. If not, the audience don't understand what is going on. Everything just happens too fast for them to see. And they find it boring to watch. (You can tell because they start to walk away from the show.)

On film and TV I suppose you can provide more clarity for the viewers by means of close-up shots and slow motion, etc.. Sometimes you see that done - with varying degrees of success. And you could argue that this results in a more accurate description of sword-fighting in the middle ages. But then there is a danger that the whole thing becoming very didactic and not so much good story-telling.

It really is not that easy to present a character as a skilled fighter to an audience of "laymen" (for want of a better word) using actual techniques. It seems that (often) only confuses or bores them.

[Jonathan Hill]

That’s another good point, look at the fighting in the Bourne movies. I think they are great while my wife gets a headache with all the moving around and camera angles, even more of a headache than she normally gets when I watch fight scenes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt6QDWQaHqg

This all sounds like Jazz, it is most appreciated by musicians who know what the other musicians are doing, and those who are not music educated have little appreciation for it.

[Sal Bertucci]

The other fact of the matter is that stage combat and Real Martial Arts are polar opposites.

Real martial arts are designed to end the fight as quickly as possible, while stage combat is all about extending the fight.

[nathan featherstone]

I dont know about them being opposite at all one is kill quick one is quick and flashy if done well and researched they look great here is a video by some friends of mine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LjX2mvBmxE
they are a stage combat team from the czeck republic and have had good success with what they do this video may not have as many historical techniques as others but still has plenty and is a joy to watch. Many of their videos have well researched combat and i met them throuh their training in this. its a fact of getting people interested who do stage combat at doing it properly.
the idea of people not knowing whats good is true in some ways if you take MMA a ground fight is pretty boring unless you understand whats going on. but flashy swordsmanship done properly still looks good.
Also much of the series was done here in Ireland we are good for drab scenery
As were many of the props and extras and weapons made here as well i know many people personally working on the set i also saw an interview with the fight director. Much of the fighting and props are a bit to fantasy based for me.
But people are right the film industry is very very insular and unless you have the certs impossible to get involved in.
if we want to see better fight scenes in movies how about an ARMA wing dedicated to it or something similar it can easily be done just look at my friends there.
here is a more historic version of their work though there are many others
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqOe44td ... er&list=UL

[Benedict Haefeli]

Well, the Jon Snow training scenes so far didn't look too bad. Much grappling and pretty fast action. I sure hope they'll show the rest of the tournament in the next episode, then we should know for sure what to expect from more serious fight scenes.