What did 17th Century Warfare look like?

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Grant Hall
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What did 17th Century Warfare look like?

Postby Grant Hall » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:09 am

Hey guys, I'm trying to research 17th century weapons, and combat, both civilian, but more importantly, battlefield.

Most swords I've looked into seem to go out of use by the late 16th century or earlier.

It seems pretty clear that civilians made use of Rapiers, but what was the soldier's sword?

Finally, how predominant were firearms on the battlefield, is this the century that saw armies of pikemen and swordsman replaced by entire armies of gunmen?

Any and all how is greatly appreciated.

Cheers and God bless!
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Grant Hall - Scholar
--ARMA Australia--
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“The Nation that makes a great distinction
between its scholars and its warriors
will have its thinking done by cowards
and its fighting done by fools"
– Thucydides 5th c. BC

LafayetteCCurtis
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Re: What did 17th Century Warfare look like?

Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:11 am

Grant Hall wrote:Hey guys, I'm trying to research 17th century weapons, and combat, both civilian, but more importantly, battlefield.

Most swords I've looked into seem to go out of use by the late 16th century or earlier.

It seems pretty clear that civilians made use of Rapiers, but what was the soldier's sword?


Look just that little bit harder. 17th-century military swords were direct descendants of 16th-century types and generally looked rather similar. The cavalry and the better sort of officers often went with swords quite similar to the A&A Town Guard sword or the Cavalier rapier or Pappenheimers like the Dresden rapier. In fact, you could see almost any style of 17th-century rapier hilt made with wider blades capable of some serious cutting. Later on (especially from the 1670s/80s onwards) you start seeing Walloon swords and the like, which (once again) were the direct descendants of earlier 17th-century forms like Pappenheimers and Mortuaries. There were also simpler hilt styles for common soldiers' swords--think of the forerunners of 18th-century hangers and briquets.


Finally, how predominant were firearms on the battlefield, is this the century that saw armies of pikemen and swordsman replaced by entire armies of gunmen?


Not really. Firearms became steadily more important, but by the end of the century there were many European armies that still retained a number of pikemen in their infantry units (though in a smaller proportion, usually one Pike to two or three Shot) because pikes were still seen as useful for instilling an aggressive spirit, with a particularly powerful effect in driving bayonet charges ahead. The Swedes were particularly successful with this (in the early 18th century!) until the Russians attritioned them to death in the Great Northern War.

Jonathan Hill
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Postby Jonathan Hill » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:45 pm

Grant Hall wrote:
Finally, how predominant were firearms on the battlefield, is this the century that saw armies of pikemen and swordsman replaced by entire armies of gunmen?


The 17th C would be a transition from the Tercio which was more dominant in the 16th C to the Regiment, which dominated the battlefields till about the 19th C. The Tercio is a formation made of pikemen and arquebursiers, well worth some research but basically what happens when you put gun men with a pike square. The pikemen could keep the cavalry off and engage other pikemen when the fight came to infantry to infantry while the arquebursiers took shots at everyone. As guns improved it was found that a few shallow lines of gunmen could deliver fire faster and more effective and thus was found to be dominant.

Chris Moritz
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Postby Chris Moritz » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:20 pm


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Grant Hall
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Postby Grant Hall » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:02 am

Thanks guys, my internet time is unfortunately severely restricted these days... I appreciate the help. Those Arms & Armour links, and info on the 30 years war is really helpful.
<<<<<<<<<<]==0

Grant Hall - Scholar

--ARMA Australia--

0==[>>>>>>>>>>



“The Nation that makes a great distinction

between its scholars and its warriors

will have its thinking done by cowards

and its fighting done by fools"

– Thucydides 5th c. BC

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Grant Hall
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:11 am
Location: Australia, Victoria

Postby Grant Hall » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:55 am

In the ARMA Article "The Weighty Issue of Two-handed Greatswords" the following quote is found.

In contrast to longswords, technically, true two-handed swords (epee's a deux main) or "two-handers" were actually Renaissance, not Medieval weapons. They are really those specialized forms of the later 1500-1600s, such as the Swiss/German Dopplehänder ("double-hander") or Bidenhänder ("both-hander").


I am however finding it difficult to find accounts of bidenhanders being used in the 17th century, can anyone point me in the right dirrection?

Cheers!
<<<<<<<<<<]==0

Grant Hall - Scholar

--ARMA Australia--

0==[>>>>>>>>>>



“The Nation that makes a great distinction

between its scholars and its warriors

will have its thinking done by cowards

and its fighting done by fools"

– Thucydides 5th c. BC


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Benjamin Abbott
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Postby Benjamin Abbott » Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:01 am

I recall seeing one source on the seventeenth century - I believe from the Thirty Years War - that emphasized the wretchedness of pikemen. The author wrote that they never killed anyone who did not foolishly run against their spears and shooting a pikeman was akin to murdering a noncombatant. By this account, pikeman played a strictly defensive role.

LafayetteCCurtis
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Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:32 pm

That's just one viewpoint, though (and, if it was Simplicissimus, a fictional one at that). There were plenty of others who saw the pikemen as a crucial element in preserving the offensive spirit of the infantry, as the Shot might be tempted into getting stuck in a prolonged firefight without advancing with cold steel to press the decision (particularly before the advent of socket bayonets).


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