freestyle wrestling and combatives

[Anonymous]

I want to see what you guys think about the value of freestyle (as in, the style that American middle and high schools teach) wrestling for combat. I know what the concensus here is on ground combat, and I agree with it too. But as I look through my wrestling manuals I can't help thinking that many of these moves would be quite brutual if carried through complelely or the safety precaution taken away (because it is a sport). For example, look at the varying degrees of nelsons (maybe chickenwinging for that matter as well?) - if you kept going you could snap a neck. Then there are the headlocks and armbars, which again could be devestating iif you wanted to use them in that way. And as for throws, while the rules say you must land your opponent safely, which rules out simply throwing him and staying on your feet, so you have to go to the ground, it would be an easy matter to not do this in real combat, simply slamming the opponent to the ground. Finally, it does teach how to fight from literally any angle, and considering a real fight is unpredictable I think this is valuable, from a physical and mental (confidence booster) perspective. I know the ancient Greeks had distinct styles of wrestling for sport and combat, but I can't help thinking that there was cross-over, considering the prevelance of sport wrestling, and that many of the citizens who wrestled for sport also had combat experience (ex. Plato was a champion wrestler and fought in combat).

[Allen Johnson]

The topic of the value of combat related sports in relation to historical combat comes up often. While there is no question that there is value to be gained in some of these sports, it is never the same as working in the art itself. Sport Fencing, olympic style wrestling, MMA, boxing, etc, all teach basic attributes that will assist in learning MARE, but it is still not the same.

As far as the safety factor goes, there is value in learning from folks that have the experience and control to teach, demonstrate and work the historical techniques but in a safe manner. Our European ancestors managed to practice these arts and become masters at it. We just have to keep working how to do it ourselves.

[Stacy Clifford]

Certainly there are many good skills that can be learned from sport wrestling, and many techniques that when carried further can have real combat value. The important thing you have to keep in mind is the inherent assumptions in that sport that create blind spots. No technique in freestyle wrestling accounts for the possibility of being bitten while attempting it. Getting a good lock on one arm could mean having your eyes gouged out by his other one. The groin is also fair game in a real fight. Some sporting techniques can actually make you more vulnerable to these types of attacks, not less. If the rules of your sport assume that certain things won't happen, then its methods won't protect you against those things because they don't need to. Switching to "real fight mode" means you have to take those factors into consideration when deciding which sporting techniques are useful and which aren't.

[Anonymous]

Well, I thought you guys had basically answered my question and then I read about this! http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/8397 ... -shot.html

Granted the guy was drunk, and most likely in better shape/stronger than the two cops, but still, he kept them at bay until he was shot.

Which also brings up on other question. Most likely these cops were trained in basic hand to hand fighting, but given the nature of these techniques, you can't practice them like you can in sparring - you'd do too much damage or kill somebody. But in sport "martial arts," like boxing, wrestling, judo, you can free spar for practice, and thus be better overall. It reminds me of Jigoro Kano's Judo beating out the jiu-jutsu schools at the Tokyo police trials because of judo's widespread use of randori free sparring. I don't know how you ARMA guys practice you hand to hand stuff, but I don't think it can be denied that this is something strongly in favor of support sport combatives.

[sixtus]

Hi forum, what a great forum I wrestled internationally for my country in Greco, though of course did some crosstraining in freestyle, mma and BJJ as we all do , before I got too old that is

I have only just started reading these western martial arts books and was presently surprised to see people doing all the wrestling in them. I always thought wrestling would work, especially in armored fighting, but for years no one would believe us. Its only until the UFC people thought we could even fight lol. Now its showing we have a place in armored battle !

As to the question. I think freestyle wrestling is an excellent background in wrestling as to be effective at high levels you must learn the basics before the exceptions. By that I mean certain things like attacking weakpoints(eyes, cheeks etc) and the ability to pull out a knife(!) will change the shape of the wrestle yes but these facts should not put you off learning pure wrestling technique in its entirety first and practicing it as high a level as you can. It is so important to learn correctly. And no it is not like fencing where the sport has turned so crazy the sport techniques are unrealistic. Humans still have two arms, two legs, controlling the head still control opponents direction and controlling his hips stills controls his mass etc.

Then once you are wrestling instinctively you can open your style to accommodate the nasty stuff. This is the best way to learn and in my opinion the masters of sword fighting or knightly training back in the day would have done it the same way.

It really is worth learning wrestling unencumbered by exceptions just to get the true feel and for everything to become intstictive. I found streetfighting( or bouncing as we called in on doors in the 1980's/1990s if you have quick takedowns or arm drags etc you will grab and execute them and assailant will be winded on ground before the assailant with a bottle or long fingernails etc has even realised he is thrown. Now if he has some skill to resist the throw, you may be in trouble, but again just learning that hip throw or arm drag, or ankle pick to perfection is really a nice thing.

Now as to best wrestling to learn.

Firstly looking at my own stlye for battle I think Greco is good for any close formation/riot scenarios as uses no attacks on legs, so Greco wrestling is upright, you will not bend down too far, lose sight of surroundings, and you will be less likely to be pushed or tripped over accidentally as a result.More on this later.

Greco 1-1 itself is not as effective however if the other person has good freestyle or takedowns. We do manage to hold off and takedown judo guys more often than they us though and generally BJJ but we are also crosstraining leg defence to do this. Pure Greco in theory would not.

As mentioned it has no leg attacks, and little leg defence. It is also not visually based wrestling, there is little concept of timing and spacing. In fact the wrestle does not start until both parties are ready to start pushing. You can in fact wrestle eyes closed in greco and we do this as a sparring tool in training to develope the correct 'feel'. In Greco to score it is a matter of pushing and pulling and trying to overload opponent into a minor overeaction that will form the first part of your throw. In other words the whole time you are basically trying to springload each other and take advantage when the spring slips. As this is difficult it is why Greco matches generally low scoring and look messy to the average guy.

The moves are very simple to learn HOWEVER executing them meaning loading your opponent and achieving throws takes the longest of all wrestling/grappling styles to learn or get the 'feel'. Until then you are muscling through everything and never really getting anywhere. Even freestyle wrestlers don't really 'get it' until they try Greco for a few months. Then one day, bang it all makes sense and you can springload anyone foolish enough to tie up with you.Judo, aikido, strongmen and get them all flying Especially poor old aikido guys.

Now keep in mind by this stage against the average guy attacks are very easy to do, as he pushes back first time -whoosh he flies and lands not knowing what happened:D

The other advantage of Greco- head up as mentioned, body upright mostly, eyes on surroundings. Good habit for streetfighting. Also no attacks on legs means your centre of mass never gets below your opponent. as in a streetfight or riot you may be accidentally bumped or tripped or fall and you will never get up again. So I find Greco simple moves and good balance perfect style for this and moving forward in Greco is like moving forward or back in boxing, or how cops move forward in riot formation. Probably ancient battles too. Greco also has reputation for highest upper body strength however I think there is not much between freestyle, greco and judo guys. what Greco does have is the highest 'isometric' strength and endurance. That is the ability to maintain a load for a long time. That's what randy couture beat everyone in the day. He really didn't throw knockouts punches or even do any amazing Greco takedowns but he would force or even trick people into tieing people up on the ropes and then basically vampirise all their energy with his endurance.

On to Freestyle- For 1-1 grappling, well the high level freestyle guy takes us all down. He takes down Greco, BJJ, some very fast Judo guys are in with small chance to stay on their feet for a bit.( Of course all have a chance once on the ground as we know) However in pure takedowns freestyle is king.

The good news is its not too difficult to learn basic stay on your feet defences against a very skifull wrestler, as long as you learn the fundamentals and practice a lot. One proviso is competitive wrestlers are usually also as strong as weightlifters so if you are regular comic book or WOW playing guy you will need to work on your conditioning However on a pound for pound basis freestyle wresting can be learned well enough to execute throws and provide good defence against all other grappling on the feet.

Add weapons I think a lot of bending and leg attacks in freestyle may go out the window. I also think ground grappling most attacks should be directed at controlling arms(another advantage of Greco) rather than anything else, another reason I think leg and choke submissions are maybe not seen in the old manuals?(too easy to get cut while trying to do it)

Add other people, riots, general melee I think the freestyle guy sticks to basic Greco techniques himself. Pushing, pulling a shield, blocking a hand, arm dragging, head control etc.

That said for the new sword martial arts learner of grappling I would still suggest freestyle over Greco because at least with freestyle you will learn ALL the takedown moves, and leg defences, and at those times when leg attacks are warranted you will be able to execute without thinking. It is only a small adjustment once you are proficient to concentrate on anything you want, upper body, worrying about knives and other opponents etc. And again this goes back to the importance of learning fundamentals before exceptions. Too much emphasis on exception based learning in my experience is for guys not too interested in actually committing to the realites that any combat is hard sweaty training- they are hoping for an easy shortcut to avoid it.

Lastly freestyle teaches good footspeed and timing. Unlike Greco it has visually based attacks( lunges to leg takedowns etc) and so must also teach reaction and maintaining necessary space to defend. As a leg cannot defend from an arm you need space to react to either block with arms or remove your own legs back.

Freestyle will thus hone your reflexes and balance on the feet and I was often told by our national sport fencers our lighter weight wrestlers make excellent fencing students just due to their lunging speed back and forth. That's not fat Greco heavyweights like me of course

[Randall Pleasant]

Sixtus

You need to change your logon to your real name as is required by the form rules.

[Kevin Reicks]

Well, I thought you guys had basically answered my question and then I read about this! http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/8397 ... -shot.html

Granted the guy was drunk, and most likely in better shape/stronger than the two cops, but still, he kept them at bay until he was shot.

Which also brings up on other question. Most likely these cops were trained in basic hand to hand fighting, but given the nature of these techniques, you can't practice them like you can in sparring - you'd do too much damage or kill somebody. But in sport "martial arts," like boxing, wrestling, judo, you can free spar for practice, and thus be better overall. It reminds me of Jigoro Kano's Judo beating out the jiu-jutsu schools at the Tokyo police trials because of judo's widespread use of randori free sparring. I don't know how you ARMA guys practice you hand to hand stuff, but I don't think it can be denied that this is something strongly in favor of support sport combatives.

The training of the cops is unknown. To my knowledge, police aren't necessarily trained in the same way military is. When police "fight", they aren't trying to break bones or kill, there is a lot they legally can't do. It is often as many cops as can be gathered to tackle and restrain the perp.
In ARMA, we do train realistically. I'm a solo member, been in for a year and I haven't had near the same level of training as a lot of other guys, but I have seen some incredible displays of skill and timing. The big thing that turns so many people off is we don't ground fight. William E. Fairbairn, the renowned British WWII combat instructor was a Judo black belt, and there was very little to none that he trained except maybe in trench conditions. There are good reasons why and it has been debated in this forum. That all being said, I think it is a worth while thing to cross train in MMA stuff and the stuff ARMA does.

[medievalweaponsluvr]

great thread here....