Ochs vs Finestra

[Karen Rose]

I've been doing some Fiore study and am now coming up with lots of comparison questions. I find finestra destra a very difficult guard to get into and hold for any length of time. I believe it is supposed to serve the same purpose as ochs. Can someone with Fiore experience give me a clue as to how I may use the proper 'ergonomics' (for lack of a better word)....or relax into this guard?

[Matthew_Anderson]

Well, I'll probably catch a lot of flack for this, but I think many of the guards shown by Fiore are very similar to those in the German tradition. Posta de Fenestra, for instance, sure looks a lot like Ochs to me. Fiore shows the hilt held further back perhaps, and the body is a bit more sideways, but these are minor differences IMO. Fiore does refer to this posta as "instabile" which probably means that he doesn't intend for you to wait in this position for a a long time. Guards like Posta Breve (short guard), which looks a lot like Pflug and Posta de Ferro Mezana (middle iron door) which looks a lot like Alber, are referrred to as "stabile" they are easier to stay in for a long time.

[Craig Peters]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that Ochs/Fenestra is a guard that one transitions into when executing a technique, rather than a guard that one would use when beginning a fight.

[Webmaster]

Actually Ochs is the first guard you find yourself in when you draw your sword from your belt (right ochs if you're right handed).

[Craig Peters]

Actually Ochs is the first guard you find yourself in when you draw your sword from your belt (right ochs if you're right handed).

Right, but typically one would quickly shift guards after drawing the sword, would one not? I was referring to the fact that some thrusts from the bind or a unterhau will put one roughly in Ochs.

[Stuart McDermid]

Hi Guys,

Posta Di Finestra is as some have already posted an instable posture only adopted while you parry. Hence, relaxing into it is not really an issue as you move somewhere else as soon as your beat is completed.

It is not used in the same way as Ochs where you make single time defences via thrusting and you also don't lie in it as you can with the Ochs guard. With a sword long enough to be capable of an effective single time counterthrust, Ochs is a very good position to lie in to begin a fight as it is very secure defensively whilst still offering a threat.
Cheers,
Stu.

[Karen Rose]

Thanks for all the input. Yes, I realize that Fiore intended for this guard to be more of a transition, although from what I can understand it may be used as a thrusting stance. It is held quite high...blade is held so that you can see under the blade as compared to ochs which is why I get all wound up in it <img src="/forum/images/icons/crazy.gif" alt="" /> . Ochs is rather comfortable. Holding the sword up high with the hands crossed is difficult. One of my ways to build upper body strength is to hold the guards for extended periods of time so that those particular muscle groups become accustomed to that position.
I'm just having some difficulty smoothly moving in and out of this one....and especially holding it.
I hope that makes sense.

[Karen Rose]

Thanks again for all the input. I've had a few weeks to play with finestra and ochs. I'm still a bit at a loss for the arm postioning in finestra.....Fiore shows the elbows pointing almost straight to the ground. Lichtenhaur shows the forearm almost parallel to the ground. Ochs seems to have a more powerful thrust potential. For me it certainly has a much easier flow for transitioning to other positions.
I've tried them both many times in a basic oberstich/imbracatto high thrust and ochs seems more natural.
If anyone has had the opposite experience I'd love to hear it. Fiore studied with German masters, but I'm sure he had a reason for presenting this guard the way we see it.
Thanks again folks.
Karen